David Rose, ITN
Tomorrow’s cabinet will start picking up the pieces of a devolution policy shattered by last night’s vote. It’s very difficult to see how the Government can now honour election pledges which said “The next Labour Government promises a Scottish Assembly and we only make promises we can keep”.
The sheer size of last night’s defeat guarantees that the guillotine won't simply be brought back in a few weeks, just in case the opposition has weakened. Something very major will have to have changed before the Government can try again – an early Referendum, for instance, though after last night’s vote, the House of Lords might easily block a Referendum Bill. The Government’s business managers don't believe a Referendum could be held in time to make the Devolution Bill law this session.
Mr Callaghan said today his Government would stay in office for another two years – if it does, a Devolution Bill of some sort might just get through next session. [end p1]
One possibility tomorrow’s Cabinet will certainly discuss is the new Conservative Party policy – a Convention on Devolution. After chairing her Shadow Cabinet last night, Mrs. Thatcher said that the best way ahead was a Convention aimed at getting all-party agreement.
MT
That was our proposal. It so happens that Michael Foot turned it down flat. He may take it up again. I don't know. But the ball is in the government's court now. We took the initiative. We gave them a way out—a way out which we believe would be helpful to all parties and would be much more likely to get the right result for Britain than the present bill.
David Rose, ITN
Now every conceivable partner in that all-party convention fought the last election on the basis of supporting a directly-elected assembly for Scotland. Would that be the starting point therefore of the convention that you are now supporting?
MT
I don't think that we should commit ourselves in advance to any particular scheme.
David Rose, ITN
You would admit [word unclear] it to discuss whether we should have devolution at all in fact?
MT
Oh no. I think … I think that is agreed. But I don't think we should commit ourselves to any particular scheme of devolution. We should just examine all the possible options that are available. You see what last night showed is that no one party can put any scheme through alone. You've got to get agreement. Now if you go in to get agreement you can't go in each of you committed in advance to your own particular pet scheme.
David Rose, ITN
But let's be quite clear. You fought the last election on a directly elected assembly for Scotland. Does that commitment still stand?
MT
We fought the last election on that. So did the present Government. They haven't been able so far to put the measure through alone. I don't think any one party can put through any scheme alone and that I think is why we have to get together. You see if you can't in a vote put it through then you've got to get together and see just exactly where to go in the future, where you can get the broadest measure of agreement. And you don't start off on that particular course by saying “I have already decided to do this and I'm not going to discuss anything else” . You discuss everything. We are all committed to devolution. It is the particular form it takes which is in issue. [end p2]
David Rose, ITN
You are all committed …
MT
Mm.
David Rose, ITN
… according to the manifestos you presented to the electoral to a directly elected Scottish Assembly.
MT
Yes, but members of our own parties—it is not only a question of between parties—members among the parties have different views. That's why we got voting from the Government side with us last night. So it's not just a question of agreement between parties but agreement between different views in the House of Commons. And that again is what the vote showed.
David Rose, ITN
But what about the people of Scotland who were promised—and I'll say it again—by all parties at the last election that they supported a directly-elected Assembly sitting in Edinburgh. What are they to think now after this vote when it is quite clear that this Bill can't get through without a guillotine and you put all your people on a three-line whip to destroy the Bill.
MT
Not necessarily. May I just correct you on one thing?
David Rose, ITN
Do.
MT
In our manifesto last time we were not committed to a directly-elected assembly. We were committed to a Scottish Assembly. The commitment to a directly-elected assembly came at a party conference later, but it was not in the last manifesto.
It's no earthly good our going back and saying we were committed to this if you cannot get it through the House of Commons. That's why we have to discuss—and to discuss on as broad a possible basis as we can—and to consult the people of Scotland, and Wales as well.
David Rose, ITN
If you came to power this year, as you no doubt hope, would you introduce a devolution bill providing for, say, a Scottish Assembly in your first year? Would it be a top priority?
MT
No party can overcome the conscience of its particular members of parliament. We always find on constitutional matters that we tend to get a certain amount of cross-voting. And it is right that we should have a broader measure of agreement than pure party agreement when you come to changing the constitution. Now I don't think anyone in the country would wish us to try to overcome the conscience of members. I think they would say “just try to get as much agreement as you can and let it be a House of Commons matter” .