NATIONAL INSURANCE SURCHARGE (CHURCHES AND CHARITIES)
Q1. Mr. Pardoe
asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement about his recent meeting with representatives of Churches and charities regarding the effect on them of the surcharge on the employers' national insurance contribution.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
On 21st January I met a deputation from the Churches and the National Council of Social Services. The deputation urged that the National Insurance Surcharge should not be imposed on Churches or charities, particularly since they could neither pass the surcharge on nor set it off against tax. I undertook to consider their representations very carefully, and am now looking at the problem to see whether a solution can be found.
Mr. Pardoe
Will the Prime Minister confirm that part of his difficulty is his fear that any concession may be taken as a precedent for other interested groups and will be seized upon by other parties for political advantage? Will he accept, in his considerations, that the Liberal Party, at least, will guarantee to take no political advantage of any concession? Will he use this occasion to invite the Leader of the Conservative Party to give a similar guarantee, which will make things much easier for him?
The Prime Minister
I am not used to these generous offers. It is the case that the problem of repercussions is important in considering this concession, although I am not so certain, after the experience of my right hon. Friend in relation to the devolution Bill, just how far the Front Benches can commit their followers. Nevertheless, an expression of good will [column 254]is always welcome on matters of this kind. Having listened to representations from the Churches and charities about the difficulties that they are having, I am impressed and I would like to find a way of meeting them which like to find a way of meeting them which would not involve a great deal of expenditure that would not be justified, perhaps on the same grounds, in other cases.
Mr. Christopher Price
Has my right hon. Friend read Lord Goodman's report on charities, which was issued recently? It fudged a large number of issues, among which was that of the charitable status of public schools. As the Labour manifesto of October 1974 spoke of withdrawing the charitable status of public schools, will the Government do something about this?
The Prime Minister
I did not discuss that matter with the deputation that I met, because that was not its purpose in coming to see me. I have not read Lord Goodman's report. If issues were fudged, I am not certain that I would derive a great deal of enlightenment from reading it, although I pass no comment on the clarity and logic of Lord Goodman's thinking on any matter. I shall seek advice on this matter, but I am chary about offering to introduce new legislation into the House in its present frame of mind.
Mr. Michael Latham
Is the Prime Minister aware that it is all the more important to make this concession because the concessions that the Government made to the Churches and charities on the Community Land Act have proved profoundly unsatisfactory?
The Prime Minister
There is the question of charges imposed upon the Churches, and there is the question of self-employment for the clergy. All of these add burdens. That is why I am genuinely seeking a solution to the problem. If the House can agree on a limited solution to it I shall certainly invite the Chancellor to see what can be done.
Mrs. Thatcher
I do not understand what the problem is. James CallaghanThe Prime Minister is likely to come under more criticism from the Opposition side of the House if he does not do it than if he does.
The Prime Minister
Perhaps I may be utterly frank with the right hon. Lady. I should like an assurance that if this [column 255]concession is made—it must be conceded on merit if it is made, and I fully accept that I do not want to strike any bargains—it will not be used, perhaps by the Liberal Party—I mention only that party, because it made the offer—as the foundation upon which to build demands for other logical but not necessarily equally worthy concessions.
Prime Minister
(Engagements)
Q2. Mr. Skinner
asked the Prime Minister what are his official engagements for 15th February.
Q4. Mr. Robinson
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 15th February.
The Prime Minister
This morning I attended the memorial service for Lord Avon. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including the CBI and Signor Colombo, the former Italian Prime Minister.
Mr. Skinner
Will my right hon. Friend be meeting his political advisers today? If he does, will he engage them in a discussion about the Honours List? Will he then take out a large sheet of clean—[Hon. Members: “Lavender paper.” ]—white, not lavender paper, and write on it the word—[Hon. Members: “Skinner.” ] I ask my right hon. Friend to resist that suggestion for a start. Will he then write on it the words “The Honours List is undemocratic and I intend to abolish it” ?
The Prime Minister
I shall, of course, meet my political adviser today. I rarely move without him. It is well known that everything I say is put into my mouth by him—at least all the good points, not the bad ones. As to my hon. Friend's position, I take note of his denial that he wishes to appear in the Honours List. I am not sure whether it is mock modesty on his part to say that or whether he got someone down here actually to shout his name in order to put into my head something which would never otherwise have entered it.
As I have said before that the Honours List is a suitable vehicle for rewarding those who perform a great deal of ser[column 256]vice, frequently in a voluntary capacity. I have no intention of abolishing it. Indeed, I receive from hon. Members a great many proposals. Let me point out to those who scorn it that the last Honours List gave a great deal of satisfaction to the groups I tried to pick out, namely, those who help and who work voluntarily for handicapped children and other people. These people do not go into these activities to get a reward, but they like to feel that their services are recognised. I intend to continue with the Honours List.
Mr. Robinson
In the course of his meeting with the CBI, will my right hon. Friend bring to the attention of Lord Watkinson the fact that we much welcome his commitment to get the rate of price increases down to 5 per cent. by the middle of this year? While Lord Watkinson is in the mood for giving these important commitments to the country, will my right hon. Friend ask him to give a commitment to increase new jobs and the rate of investment in manufacturing industry?
The Prime Minister
I think that the comment by Lord Watkinson was that he would like to see the rate of inflation down to 5 per cent. by the middle of 1978–and who would not? But this depends upon pursuing policies that will ensure that inflation does not increase. This in turn must arise from export-led growth rather than consumer-led growth, and that is what we still intend to work at. It depends on the level of earnings increases during the next 12 months, because an unwarranted level of increases will lead only to one of two things. It will lead either to more inflation or to higher unemployment. There is no escape from that dilemma.
Mrs. Thatcher
Does the Prime Minister recall that when he replied to the economic debate in October he claimed that all the indicators, including unemployment, were pointing in the right direction? On a day when we have had another indicator showing that industrial production is well below the February 1974 level, will he still make the same claim?
The Prime Minister
I shall look up what I said, but I shall be very surprised if I said that about unemployment.
[column 257]Mr. Tebbit
Yes, you did.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Member is so sure of everything. I wish that I were as sure of some things as he is of everything.
As for the general indicators, I note that manufacturing industry output has risen, and that is something I dare say we are all pleased about. I note, too, that industrial production as a whole was 1½ per cent. higher in the last three months than in the previous three months. There are special reasons for that, and I never believe in over-claiming on these matters. But if we take the balance of payments statistics, the level of inflation over the next 12 months and the level of growth and of exports, it is probably true to say that we are moving in the right direction—though not fast enough yet, and there is much more to be done.
Mr. Ashley
Is it not wrong for the Prime Minister to be lectured by the Opposition about inflation, and especially about unemployment? Does he not realise that while he is fighting for the social contract, thereby to reduce inflation and unemployment, he can expect no help from the Opposition because they represent unbridled nineteenth-century capitalist values? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind when he speaks to trade unionists who are trying to destroy the social contract that a vote against the social contract is a vote for the Conservative Party and a vote for unemployment?
The Prime Minister
I am quite satisfied that it is necessary that we should adhere to the social contract. As regards the statements of the Opposition, I much prefer what they write to the speeches they make. I will not quote once again—[Interruption.] Well, in response to popular requests I will quote. The Conservative document states:
“The Conservative approach entails living within our means, paying our way in the world, mastering inflation … an economic miracle is not around the corner. The foundations of economic growth will not be relaid in less than a decade.” They are wise words and I agree with every one of them. Provided I get that kind of support generally, I shall be very happy.
Mr. Baker
Will the Prime Minister find time today to have a word with Sir [column 258]Ronald McIntosh, Chairman of the NEDC, since it is rumoured that one of his employees, Mr. John Cousins, is threatened with unemployment because he has dared to voice opposition to Government policy? As employees of the NEDC are not employed on the basis of civil servants, surely the Prime Minister should condemn any pressure put upon these employees when they make expressions which are different from and in hostility to the Government's policy.
The Prime Minister
I am asked to make judgments, to give opinions and to condemn this and that. I do not intend to exceed my responsibility in this matter. I am sure that Sir Ronald McIntosh is perfectly capable of handling this, and, knowing Mr. John Cousins as I do, I know that he is too.
HEMEL HEMPSTEAD
Q3. Mr. Corbett
asked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Hemel Hempstead.
The Prime Minister
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. Corbett
Does not my right hon. Friend realise what a disappointment that will be to 10,000 of my caring constituents who demonstrated their concern about the state of our hospital services to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and who wish the Prime Minister himself to see those hospital services? Is the need to maintain and develop acute services for this growing town recognised, and will it be met as quickly as possible?
The Prime Minister
I am sorry that I cannot fit in a visit to Hemel Hempstead at this moment, but I know of my hon. Friend's long concern about the state of hospital services in Hemel Hempstead and as he gave me an indication that he wished to raise this matter I have been into it personally since the Question was put down. There is a problem here, as my hon. Friend and, I think, his constituents realise. Whilst I cannot say to my hon. Friend that any special allocation of funds can be made to the region to provide a second hospital for Hemel Hempstead in addition to St. Albans, nevertheless, if the local area health authority will put forward some proposals [column 259]—and it is for the authority to put forward the proposals in the first place—the Secretary of State has undertaken to me, and I believe, will do so to the authority, that he will consider any proposals that are made within those limits.
Mr. Tebbit
As the Prime Minister is not going to Hemel Hempstead, would he like to spend time reading Hansard for 11th October, where he will find the words which he used and which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has just quoted to him? Before the Prime Minister does that, however, would he like to take a fiver bet with me that I am right and that he is wrong about the matter?