Education
Q1. Mr. Nicholas Winterton
asked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement on the part which he has played in the great debate on education.
Q5. Mr. Forman
asked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement outlining his part in the great debate on education.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan
As a follow-up to my speech at Ruskin College last October, my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Education and Science and Wales have agreed to organise wide-ranging consultations on the issues which I had raised. There is to be a series of eight regional conferences during February and March to which representatives of parents and teachers, trade unions and employers, local authorities and other organisations are being invited; a back [column 1222]ground paper for consideration by the conferences has been prepared and is to be published tomorrow, and a copy will be placed in the Library. A Minister will preside at each conference. Following these discussions, the Government will publish a Green Paper in the summer. I shall continue to take the closest interest in these developments and am much encouraged by the interest that has been aroused.
Mr. Winterton
Is the Prime Minister aware that the Secretary of State for Education and Science openly admitted in an education debate from the Royal Institute that was televised on BBC2 last week that comprehensive schools were unable to meet the needs of gifted children? Is he aware that these gifted young people are vital to the future success of this country? Would he ensure that no institutions of academic excellence are destroyed before the end of the great debate? Also, would he ensure that adequate provision is made for gifted children?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend said nothing at all to lead the hon. Member to that conclusion. The discussions taking place in these regional conferences will cover a number of matters of common concern. The four major issues that will be discussed are the curriculum, standards and their assessment, training of teachers, and the relationship between education and working life. If the subjects are approached on the basis on which I tried to start this debate, that can do nothing but good.
Mr. Forman
We are all very grateful that one of the subjects to which attention is being drawn is the relationship between education and industry. Does the Prime Minister accept that the much-vaunted industrial strategy to which his Government claim to be committed is not worth the paper on which it is printed unless the education system turns out highly qualified entrants to the labour market?
The Prime Minister
This is one of the questions to which I called attention in my original remarks. As a follow-up I was very glad that we were able to make arrangements between the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Education and Science for employers to make [column 1223]grants of up to £500 a year for scholarships for further education and training without that amount being taken into account against mandatory grants. This is where we want to establish a relationship, and I agree entirely with what the hon. Member has said.
Mr. Ward
Will the Prime Minister confirm that in addition to these subjects it is open to the conferences to discuss a broader range of educational topics which are of interest and importance to the regions in which the meetings are being held?
The Prime Minister
There is no restriction on the nature of discussion, but the issues laid down have formed the subject of the memorandum. I hope that hon. Members will read that in the Library, because it focuses on the real issues on which we have to reach common agreement and about which parents and industry are very concerned.
Mr. St. John-Stevas
Surely the Prime Minister would agree that, as the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) are in happy harmony for once, we are quite right to be concerned about gifted children. This is much more important than any obsession with doing away with grammar schools. Surely there is room in a mainly comprehensive system for a certain number of selected schools for highly gifted children.
The Prime Minister
As a Socialist I am all in favour of everyone having the fullest opportunity to develop his or her talents to the maximum. That seems to be a necessary condition for a healthy society and I am certain that our education system will be formulated accordingly.
Parliamentary Democracy
Q2. Mr. Grylls
asked the Prime Minister if the public speech on parliamentary democracy and individual liberty given by the Secretary of State for Education and Science on 21st January at Swadlincote represents Government policy.
Q9. Mr. Wyn Roberts
asked the Prime Minister if the public speech of the Secre[column 1224]tary of State for Education and Science on parliamentary democracy at Swadlincote on 21st January represents Government policy.
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend began her speech by saying that she did not intend to discuss the affairs of Government, but in so far as she did touch on them the answer is “Yes” .
Mr. Grylls
Since the right hon. Lady was talking about Marxists during a large part of her speech, and following the final rejection last night of the right hon. Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Prentice) as local party candidate, will the Prime Minister say where he stands? Will he come clean about this and say whether at the next General Election he will be supporting the candidate of the Newham Marxists or whether he will be supporting the right hon. Member as an independent democratic Labour Party candidate?
The Prime Minister
There is no ministerial responsibility on this matter, but the hon. Gentleman may take it that I shall be supporting all the candidates who support the Parliamentary Labour Party and that I shall be vigorously opposing any Conservative.
Mr. Roberts
Will the right hon. Gentleman come clean on this? Does he share the right hon. Lady's unease about Trotskyism and Trotskyites, and does he agree that Marxists have shown little concern for democracy?
The Prime Minister
It is true that Marxists have not shown too much concern for democracy. As my right hon. Friend pointed out in her speech, they share that with the Conservative Party, which, as she said, has shown very little practical demonstration in championing the causes of unpopular minorities or campaigns against discrimination on grounds of sex or race and many other matters that she interpreted as being aspects of freedom. I have not seen that the Conservative Party has been very active in these matters.
Mrs. Millie Miller
Is my right hon. Friend aware that one contribution made by the Leader of the Opposition in furthering debate on the matters to which he has just referred was to make a radio broadcast from Wales in which she [column 1225]attacked the Asian immigrants, very few of whom live in Wales?
Mrs. Thatcher
indicated dissent.
The Prime Minister
I represent a Welsh constituency which contains certain coloured communities, and a number of those people are Asians. I am happy to inform my hon. Friend that they consistently vote Labour and that they would not listen to that kind of rubbish.
Mrs. Thatcher
What the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mrs. Miller) said is quite wrong. However, may I return to Questions to James Callaghanthe Prime Minister, as I understand that that is the object of this quarter of an hour on Tuesday afternoons? Is he aware that he has steadily refused to answer questions about the influence of Marxism in the party which keeps him in power? Does he, like his right hon. Friend Shirley Williamsthe Secretary of State for Education, condemn that influence, or is he too reliant on it to put his policies into practice to condemn it?
Mrs. Millie Miller
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker——
Mr. Speaker
Will the hon. Lady be kind enough to wait five minutes and raise her point of order at the end of Questions?
Mrs. Millie Miller
May I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, to allow me to raise this point of order now, since I have a statement which appeared in Dawn Overseas, which is the journal of the Pakistani immigrants, which makes it quite clear that the statement I made is correct?
Mr. Speaker
When there is disagreement between hon. Members it is not exactly a point of order, and I must remind the House that time is going on.
The Prime Minister
I agree with the right hon. Lady, but I thought that this subject was appropriate for Questions to the Prime Minister in his official capacity. Those Questions are not designed to give the right hon. Lady an opportunity of pursuing points which are rather unworthy of her, as she knows. I am almost tempted to go into the internal history of Conservative Central Office, and that would do nobody any good. [Interruption.]
[column 1226]Mr. Speaker
Order.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Lady knows very well where I stand on the issue of Marxism and the other issues. I do not propose to spend time on questions dealing with issues which have nothing to do with my Prime Ministerial rôle.
Mrs. Thatcher
Is not the Prime Minister tempted to answer the question for a change? Does he welcome or does he condemn the support of Marxists to keep him in power?
The Prime Minister
I would no more welcome or condemn it than the right hon. Lady would welcome or condemn the support of Fascists for the Conservative Party. What is more, I would not even insult the right hon. Lady by asking her a question such as that. I hope that we may conduct discussions in this Chamber on the basis that all parties are concerned with the issues of freedom, liberty and democracy. That is where I expect the right hon. Lady to stand, and she knows very well that that is where I stand. [Interruption.]
Mrs. Thatcher
Is the right hon. Gentleman—[Interruption]—not aware that I have no hesitation whatever—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. Barracking is not part of the tradition of this House.
Mrs. Thatcher
Is the Prime Minister aware that I wholly condemn Fascism anywhere, and that I ask him similarly wholly to condemn Marxism?
Hon. Members
Answer!
The Prime Minister
I do not discourage the discussion of philosophical ideas—[Hon. Members: “Oh!” ]—that may help to shape our society. Maybe the right hon. Lady is afraid of them. I am not. I am ready to meet them and face them, but the right hon. Lady should not confuse discussion with support.
Caernarvon
Q3. Mr. Wigley
asked the Prime Minister if he will visit Caernarvon.
The Prime Minister
I have no present plans to do so, sir.
[column 1227]Mr. Wigley
Will the Prime Minister assure the people of Caernarvon and elsewhere that, should the Government fail to get a timetable motion on the Scotland and Wales Bill because of the collaboration of Labour Members with Conservatives who are determined to wreck the Bill, he will extend the present Session through to 1978 or for however long it takes to get the Bill through?
The Prime Minister
I think that I would be in accordance with precedent if I answered that question as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Houses would answer it, by saying “Not next week, Sir.”
Mr. Lee
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that some of us who support the devolution Bill will not be prepared to support a guillotine if it allows the European direct elections Bill to come in? Would not the best occasion for Royal Assent to be given to the Scotland and Wales Bill be the fourth Friday in July 1979?
The Prime Minister
There is no direct connection between these two Bills. I hope that my hon. Friend does not intend to play the fool on either of them.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop
Is the reason why the Prime Minister will not visit Caernarvon the fact that he was visiting it last night, instead of voting in the House to prevent the defeat of his own Government—although he was unpaired last night—on the Reduction of Redundancy Rebates Bill? If not, will he tell the House why he secured the defeat of his own Government by not voting last night?
The Prime Minister
I understood last night that I was paired. I hope that the lesson has been learnt by all of us, in view of the difficulties over the pairing of sick Members yesterday, that if the Opposition are setting a trap we ought to be a little more careful in the future than in the past.