TUC
Q1. Mr. Madden
asked the Prime Minister when he will next meet the TUC General Council.
Q7. Mr. Adley
asked the Prime Minister when he next intends to meet the TUC.
Q8. Mr. Canavan
asked the Prime Minister when he next expects to meet the TUC.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I expect to meet some of the leaders of the TUC when I take the chair at the meeting of the NEDC on 2nd February. Other meetings will be arranged as necessary.
Mr. Madden
Despite yesterday's most welcome trade surplus, does my right hon. Friend remain dismayed at the level of imports entering the United Kingdom? Will he tell the TUC, the directors of the CBI and the Director-General of the NEDC, all of whom have urged selective import controls, that he is prepared to consider that policy together with a much tougher anti-dumping policy? Will he take the opportunity at the rumoured National Industrial Conference and on his visits to major concerns throughout the country to stress that urgent action should be taken to substitute for imports?
The Prime Minister
I am concerned still at the level of imports, although, if we take the last quarter over the previous quarter, imports increased by 1 per cent. [column 76]and exports by 5 per cent., which is a very welcome trend. I hope that that trend will continue. Despite trends and fashions, I hope that people will buy British wherever they can and whereever it is of value. As regards selective import controls, that is now the Government's policy. There are cases that are constantly examined both in the multifibre sector and elsewhere. We have been looking into ways and means of speeding up anti-dumping applications to ensure that they are decided as quickly as possible.
Mr. Adley
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the TUC that many Post Office workers resent the TUC's recommendation that they should take industrial action for political reasons, and object to the fact that they were not consulted by their unions? They are anxious to know why the TUC always seems to take this sort of action against South Africa and never against dictatorships of the Soviet Union or Eastern Europe.
The Prime Minister
It will be for the TUC to ascertain the intentions and views of its members and not for me to tell it the particular matters that the hon. Gentleman raises. It is proper and right for the Trades Union Congress to be concerned about the organisation of trade unionists in South Africa as everywhere else. I hope that the Opposition will not spend all their time on this matter but will join forces with those who wish to see labour in South Africa properly organised and enjoying the human dignity that it should enjoy.
Mr. Canavan
I congratulate trade unionists on organising this week's boycott against the apartheid régime in South Africa, but will my right hon. Friend also tell the professional footballers' union that many of us within the Labour and trade union movement will resist any pressure from the dictators within the Scottish Football Association who are trying, under the threat of disciplinary action, to force players to take part in the Scotland versus Chile international football match in a stadium in Santiago which has been desecrated by the torture and murder of many innocent people by the Fascist Pinochet régime?
The Prime Minister
I recognise that it is not possible to keep the boundary [column 77]between sport and politics entirely free where these issues are held so deeply, but with respect I do not expect to be discussing this matter with the TUC.
Mr. Carlisle
When the right hon. Gentleman next meets the TUC, will he use his influence as Prime Minister to stress to members of the General Council that if, as I am sure they do, they believe in a system of parliamentary democracy rather than union dictatorship, they have a responsibility to stress to their members that they should accept the laws of this country rather than encourage them to disobey them?
The Prime Minister
There is no doubt where the leaders of the TUC stand on this matter. [Hon. Members: “Where do you stand?” ] The Opposition do not do either industrial peace or their own prospects any good by constantly attacking the TUC on these matters. Although the chance may seem remote, the day may come when they will have to deal with them in a responsible manner.
The Government's policy on law and order is well known and will be steadily maintained.
Mr. James Lamond
May I ask the Prime Minister, when he talks to the TUC about extending the social contract for a further period, not to be hindered by the impudent and ill-advised speech of the Duke of Edinburgh, who appeared to be clambering on to the bandwagon——
Mr. Speaker
Order. It is the long-established custom in this House to speak with respect of members of the Royal Family.
Mr. Skinner
He has no respect for workers.
Mr. Torney
He certainly has not.
Mr. Speaker
Order. All I am asking for is courteous language.
Mr. James Lamond
I hope that my right hon. Friend's talks will not be impeded by speeches, from whatever source they may come, which are impudent and ill-advised enough to suggest that we should pay less attention to the deprived and underprivileged, which would be contrary to the whole spirit of the social [column 78]contract which has been forged with the Trades Union Congress.
The Prime Minister
I am not sure how far your ruling went, Mr. Speaker, but, as you will know, there is no ministerial responsibility for speeches made by the Duke of Edinburgh, and I certainly do not intend to assume any. I do not think that such speeches, by whomever they are made, will have any impact on the great understanding between the Government and the trade union movement on some of these issues.
Prime Minister
(Engagements)
Q2. Mr. Tim Renton
asked the Prime Minister what are his official engagements for 18th January.
Q4. Mr. Luce
asked the Prime Minister what are his official engagements for Tuesday 18th January.
The Prime Minister
In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mr. Renton
In the course of a busy day, will the Prime Minister find time this evening to stop and think about the extension of power of non-parliamentary bodies in Britain during the last week? From his reading of today's Press, for example, what does he think about the fact that the price of a loaf is now to be determined by the bread van delivery men?
The Prime Minister
I often pause and think about the relationships between the various power structures in this country. This matter, if it is not wholly treated on a purely party basis, should be of concern to us all. I do not intend to have among my engagements today anything to do with bread.
Mr. Wrigglesworth
I wonder whether I may take my right hon. Friend back to his official engagements for last Thursday, particularly Question Time. Does he not regret with me the fact that the visit of Mr. Bukovsky to this country was used for blatant party political purposes and to foster the mistaken impression that people in the Labour movement are [column 79]not in favour of the campaign for further civil liberties in the Soviet Union? Will he tell the House what approaches were made by Mr. Bukovsky for a meeting and the Government's response to those approaches?
The Prime Minister
Last Thursday, when I was perhaps a little unnecessarily irked by the nature of the question put to me, I overlooked, although I had been told that an engagement had been made for Mr. Bukovsky to be seen by a Foreign Office Minister. That engagement was put off and a second engagement was made, but Mr. Bukovsky cancelled that. [Hon. Members: “Why?” ] He cancelled it because of ill health. [Hon. Members: “Oh.” ] That is for hon. Gentlemen to comment on, and not for me.
I certainly recognise, as I hope all hon. Members do, the great pressure to which someone who is released from the atmosphere of the Soviet Union is subject. Because of that, it is highly undesirable that he should be used for party political purposes.
Mr. Luce
In the light of Mr. Bukovsky 's experience and recent remarks, will the Prime Minister turn his mind to the facts? Does he recall that in July 1975 the then Chief of the Defence Staff, Sir Michael Carver, said that Britain's defence had reached absolute bedrock? Since then there have been three defence cuts to the tune of £1 billion. Is not the Prime Minister—indeed, the Government—guilty of jeopardising the defence and freedom of the British people?
The Prime Minister
This matter was debated last week. In any case, it has nothing to do with the hon. Gentleman's Question.
Government Policy
Q3. Mr. Tebbit
asked the Prime Minister what progress he anticipates towards his Government's objectives of lower rates of inflation, increased real incomes, lower unemployment and increased production of real wealth above those ruling at the time of the last General Election.
The Prime Minister
Sustained improvement will depend on the steady pur[column 80]suit of the Government's existing policies, including such matters as improving the efficiency and productivity of British industry, competing effectively for exports in world markets, a higher rate of new industrial investment and better use of industry's existing investment, together with adherence to the social contract. In addition, a growth of world trade would be a substantial help in making the progress to which the hon. Gentleman aspires. The Government are pursuing all these matters.
Mr. Tebbit
The Prime Minister referred to a continuance of the policies which have been pursued since the last General Election. Is he aware that since then industrial production has fallen 3 per cent., unemployment has more than doubled from the famous 8.4 per cent. that was then ruling, and real take-home wages have fallen? Yet he talks of continuing with the same policies. Does he not have anything better to do than to continue with those policies? Could he not try the IMF's policies?
The Prime Minister
My actual words were that we should ensure
“the steady pursuit of the Government's existing policies” .
I believe that those policies are already bringing results and that they will continue to do so. This is hardly the day for the Opposition, in the light of yesterday's trade figures, to say that they are entirely wrong.
Mr. Jay
Should we not all warmly welcome the fact that the Opposition have been entirely unsuccessful in their persistent efforts this winter to damage sterling?
The Prime Minister
I think that the Opposition sometimes act out of malevolence and on occasions out of ignorance. Charitably, I prefer, to put it down to ignorance rather than to malevolence.
Mr. Hordern
What is the Government's policy in relation to interest rates? Is it to have deliberately high interest rates? Does the Prime Minister realise that the Government are selling hundreds of millions of pounds worth of gilt-edged securities at a rate of over 14 per cent. and are loading the country with very substantial debts for many years to come? Does he appreciate that industry is now [column 81]unable to borrow money at these rates? How does he defend this policy?
The Prime Minister
That question should be put down to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. [Hon. Members: “You are in charge. You are the boss.” ] I know that I shall never get that albatross off my neck. I shall have it week after week, whether it is true or not.
It would be foolish, to use the hon. Gentleman's word, deliberately to maintain high interest rates. The Government do not wish to do that. But neither do I wish to forecast either the future trend or sales of gilt-edged securities.
Mr. Whitehead
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) was reported this week as having made a speech in Brussels in which he said that he looked forward to a Government in this country who had the populism of Poujade and the economics of freedom—Friedman. [Interruption.] I am not one of those who equates freedom with Friedman. Is my right hon. Friend aware that that speech apparently emptied the room in record time? Does he agree that if those policies were applied here they would empty this country of hope and fraternity in equally record time?
The Prime Minister
It seems to me that the Opposition have already adopted the policies of the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit). In the whole time that I have been in the House I do not remember a party that has been moved so quickly to the right of the political spectrum. If ever the Opposition had the opportunity of putting into practice the policies of Poujade and Friedman—to which, I agree, they are committed—it would be a sad day for this country.
Mrs. Thatcher
Is not James Callaghanthe Prime Minister aware that, according to the Index of Industrial Production published today, the results of his efforts are that this country now produces less than in February 1974? Why is he so self-satisfied with a policy that produces record unemployment, record low production and record inflation?
The Prime Minister
I hope that I do not give the impression of being self-satisfied. Indeed—I do not expect to hear [column 82]a fair opinion from hon. Members opposite—I constantly remind the country of the great distances that we have to travel on economic matters and I shall continue to do so.
If we look at the forecasts for this year, which, as with all Treasury forecasts, should be treated with considerable circumspection—and they are all used by the Opposition when they want to take a stick with which to beat us—they show that gross domestic product will be higher, industrial investment will be higher, manufacturing investment will be higher, manufacturing production will be higher and the increase in retail prices will be lower. These are very important and valuable steps. The one fact with which we have not yet begun to deal satisfactorily is unemployment. That is an issue to which we must bend most of our attention.