Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

House of Commons PQs

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC [919/1559-65]
Editorial comments: 1515-1530.
Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 2403
[column 1559]

NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES

Q1. Mr. Corbett

asked the Prime Minister when he last met the heads of nationalised industries.

The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)

I met some of the chairmen of the nationalised industries on 8th November.

Mr. Corbett

When my right hon. Friend next meets them, will he make it clear to Sir Frank McFadzean that people generally take a dim view of the boss of a State industry turning round and biting the hand that feeds him? Does he agree that it is the rôle of the chiefs of these public industries to sustain and promote those industries and the jobs within them rather than act as some subversive agency for the private sector?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir. I read Sir Frank McFadzean 's speech with some interest. He only recently took up an appointment with British Airways under the Labour Government and he has already proposed a scheme for reorganisation, which has been put to the Ministers whom he criticises so heavily and has been accepted. Having known him for a long time, my own view of Sir Frank is that he is a most efficient business man but has an abysmal ignorance about either politics or government.

Mr. Adley

Will the Prime Minister tell Sir Frank that large numbers of his employees have recently twice come to this House to protest about the imposition of the closed shop upon all employees of British Airways and that they have been refused a meeting by top management to discuss the issue, have been refused access to the correspondence columns of British Airways News and have been refused a ballot? Whilst most people will wholeheartedly disagree with the views expressed by the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Corbett), nevertheless many people feel that it is up to the bosses of nationalised industries to ensure that they discover the views of their employees before pronouncing on them.

The Prime Minister

I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman is criticising Sir Frank 's knowledge of industrial relations or how [column 1560]he carries them out. I agree with the hon. Member that it is important that Sir Frank should be keenly aware of these matters, and I will see that what the hon. Gentleman has said is drawn to his attention.

Mr. David Steel

Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether he is still hellbent on increasing the number of heads of nationalised industries that he must meet on any one occasion? What is the Government's intention on the future of the ship-repairing industry if the other place maintains its view?

The Prime Minister

I do not know what the other place will do. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is in league with it——

Mr. Steel

indicated dissent.

The Prime Minister

—and can tell us. It would be a great departure from the traditions of the Liberal Party if it were to be in league with that Chamber. In relation to the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bil, I hope that the other place will take into account that, whatever may be the merits of any other measure, this measure was put to the country in the fullest way on two occasions, in February and October 1974, that it passed through the House of Commons without one defeat on the issues now before us and that, therefore, an unelected Chamber has no right to take its own view on an issue of this sort which has been before the electors.

Mrs. Thatcher

Is James Callaghanthe Prime Minister aware that the choice whether to nationalise the shipbuilding and aerospace industries is his and that of his Government alone and that there is nothing that can now be done to stop him if he wishes to go ahead? If he chooses not to do it, may I congratulate him on taking the right approach? However, let it be understood that they have not been nationalised by his choice.

The Prime Minister

I am not sure what that convoluted question is supposed to mean. I totally disagree if il means that the elected Chamber should acquiesce in decisions taken by an unelected Chamber concerning items in a manifesto that has twice been put before the British people.

[column 1561]

UNITED STATES

PRESIDENT-ELECT

Q2. Mr. Neubert

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any plans to meet the President-elect of the United States of America.

Q6. Mr. Townsend

asked the Prime Minister when he intends to meet the President-elect of the United States of America.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Members to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) on 11th November.

Mr. Neubert

When the Prime Minister meets Mr. Carter, will he discuss with him the presence in this country of American citizens apparently hostile to Western security services? As Mr. Agee has been settled in the United Kingdom for some months, why has the taking of action been delayed for so long?

The Prime Minister

I understand that there is a Private Notice Question to the Home Secretary about this matter and I have no doubt that he will wish to deal with it when it is asked. However, in general, we take our own decisions on the issue of foreign nationals living in this country and I would not discuss the matter with President-elect Carter.

Mr. John Mendelson

In the reports he has received about the election campaign, has my right hon. Friend noticed—I hope with approval—that the President-elect has carried on a successful campaign in favour of increased public expenditure to create more jobs in the United States? Does he agree that the American trade union movement, which played a considerable part in President-elect Carter 's success in the election, was particularly responsible for supporting this programme, with the result that the new Administration creates a fresh atmosphere of hope? Will my right hon. Friend therefore co-operate in this policy and adopt some of these wise counsels for his own Administration?

The Prime Minister

I do not find the economic circumstances of individual countries necessarily strictly comparable. [column 1562]For example, unemployment in the United States is far higher than it is here. There may be a need for different types of measures for different countries. However, what is clear is that there is a growing interdependence among the economies of the Western world and that we cannot solve our problems if we each take decisions in isolation.

Mr. Townsend

Will the Prime Minister discuss with Mr. Carter his strong and positive statement on the Cyprus question? Bearing in mind that Britain is a guarantor Power and that Cyprus is a fellow member of the Commonwealth, will he make certain that British policy on Cyprus is kept in line with that of the new Administration in Washington?

The Prime Minister

I could not guarantee that. We would each approach the problem of Cyprus in our own way. We would, of course, attempt to co-ordinate policies, and I have no doubt that there will be discussions between President-elect Carter 's new Administration and the Foreign Secretary in due course on these issues. However, I would not guarantee to be subservient to the United States or to anybody else.

Mr. Whitehead

If President-elect Carter should raise with my right hon. Friend the systematic campaign carried on by Conservative Members to denigrate the loyalties, as well as the abilities, of hon. Members of this House, will he draw to his attention the remarks of the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) to the effect that it was unworthy for a party to attempt to claw its way back to power by a systematic witchhunt of the very poor and of political opponents?

The Prime Minister

Would my hon. Friend expect anything else from the Opposition? Surely, the bankruptcy that they have shown and their complete incapacity to put forward any rational alternative policies must lead them either into elevating an unelected body such as the House of Lords or into attacking the integrity of their opponents—or trying to run scare campaigns on dole scroungers. That is what we always expect of the Conservative Party, and I am not a bit surprised.

[column 1563]

PRIME MINISTER

(ENGAGEMENTS)

Q3. Mr. McCrindle

asked the Prime Minister what are his official engagements for 18th November.

Q7. Mr. Norman Lamont

asked the Prime Minister whether he will list his public engagements for 18th November.

The Prime Minister

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet, and I shall be having meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.

Mr. McCrindle

If the Prime Minister and the Cabinet continue to find difficulty in the taxation of short-term benefits, will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House and the country whether, as an alternative, we can look forward to the raising of the tax threshold in the forthcoming package of economic measures, thereby returning an incentive to the less-well-paid?

The Prime Minister

I do not intend to be discussing that matter either in the Cabinet or with my ministerial colleagues or others today.

Mr. Lamont

When the Prime Minister is fulfilling his engagements, may he not bump into some of the visiting officials of the IMF? If so, will he tell them whether, if he had taken up the job he once wanted himself as managing director of the IMF, he would seriously lend money to a country whose Chancellor of the Exchequer makes the pathetic statement that the British people would rather borrow more money than have a reduction in their living standards? Why do the Government always use the excuse of borrowing money for running away from the difficult decisions that have to be made?

The Prime Minister

As a matter of history, if it be of any significance, it is true that I was approached by the former Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer—who presumably had sufficient confidence in my abilities to believe that I might have filled that post—but there were other difficulties. I am glad that it did not come off, or I should not have had the opportunity of dealing with the hon. Gentleman now. [column 1564]

But to deal with the major part of the question, the International Monetary Fund officials, whom I do not expect to bump into today, are conducting their inquiries and discussions in the normal way. There is little doubt that the loan will be forthcoming, and that will be of very great assistance to us.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

Yet another one?

The Prime Minister

Yes, yet another one—to try to make up for the deficits that the hon. Gentleman's party left. I see that I have to repeat the information for the sake of the hon. Gentleman. His party's Government entered office with a surplus on the balance of payments and they left with a deficit and a vast increase in the borrowing requirement and in the money supply. All these things we are now coping with.

But as to the future, in a rational atmosphere there is no reason why a country should not borrow against its assets, if by its economic policies it has a good opportunity of coming through. As long as we maintain the existing policy of relying on an export-led growth, of keeping a cash control over public expenditure and of putting the needs of industry first, there is every reason why we should see our way through this temporary period into the 1980s.

Mr. Thorpe

When the right hon. Gentleman's ministerial colleagues are meeting with him today, may we hope that they will be reviewing all his more recent speeches in order to give them greater clarity and effectiveness—in particular, his remark at the Guildhall that any increase in oil prices would be disastrous for the world at large? Will he agree, that being so, that it is essential that the North-South conference, meeting in Paris, should not be adjourned as has been suggested but should meet before OPEC meets, and that there should be some collective view from those who are the buyers of oil by which they can bring some influence to bear upon those who are selling the oil?

The Prime Minister

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman's point that a substantial increase in the price of oil—or, indeed, any increase in its price—is likely to be disastrous for the poorest [column 1565]countries and will hit the economies of even the better-off countries. I am not sure that it would be right to make a link between the CIEC Conference and oil prices. Although oil and energy is one aspect of it, the CIEC is dealing with a far wider problem. We want to make a constructive reply to the developing countries at the Conference on International Economic Co-operation, in relation both to what is called a common fund and other matters. I hope that this matter will be discussed by the Heads of Government when we meet at The Hague at the end of this month.

Mr. Kilroy-Silk

Will my right hon. Friend take time to reflect upon the fact that the Opposition, when rooting out socalled abuses in the Welfare State, never once made mention of the £900 million of unpaid surtax, corporation tax and capital gains tax which is, in effect, being stolen from the Treasury and the ordinary wage earner?

The Prime Minister

I am sure that there is a great deal of unpaid taxation, and I hope that the Inland Revenue follows it up. If that is done quickly, it will certainly lessen the borrowing requirement that we shall otherwise have.