MINISTERIAL BROADCASTS
Q1. Mr. Ashley
asked the Prime Minister how many ministerial broadcasts he has made since taking office.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
One, Sir.
Mr. Ashley
When my right hon. Friend next makes a broadcast, will he care to refer to the responsible attitude of the trade unions which are now planning for a return to free collective bargaining, because, as David Basnett said yesterday, they want to avoid an atomic explosion of wages? Will he agree that that creative attitude is in direct contrast with the attitude of those in management who are now busily devoting their time and energy to schemes designed to evade taxation?
The Prime Minister
We shall have considerable problems next year when we discuss the ending of the agreement on pay which will expire in July 1977. It is generally recognised by trade unions and by the Government that there will have to be consultation about these matters, and we shall be ready to enter upon that as soon as seems appropriate.
There may be a fringe element of management concerned with tax evasion. I want to emphasise, as I did yesterday, that we need the skill and good will of management if we are to solve some of the problems which lie ahead of us. I am satisfied that the great majority of management is helping in that direction.
Mrs. Thatcher
When he next makes a ministerial broadcast will James Callaghanthe Prime Minister explain what he proposes to do with the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill? Does he propose to redeem the broken pledge on the last vote on that Bill by dropping the measure?
[column 1663]The Prime Minister
I shall of course be very happy to discuss the Shipbuilding Bill on television or in any other forum if it seems appropriate. I must resist the right hon. Lady's view about the way in which the vote was conducted. I do not wish to exacerbate or add to the difficulties which exist in the House, but I am bound to say that some of the accounts which have appeared do not tally with my version or my understanding of what took place, and it is at least as likely that I am right as that the Opposition Chief Whip is right.
Mrs. Hayman
Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity of his next television broadcast to explain the value of the child benefit scheme to families in this country rather than allowing the Cabinet to retreat in panic from the most important social measure for families that we have?
The Prime Minister
The child benefit scheme has not been abandoned, but it has been partly implemented by giving £1 for the first child. It cannot be fully implemented, as I stated yesterday in the course of my long speech which my hon. Friend found sufficiently convincing to vote for.
Mrs. Thatcher
Having seen the Prime Minister before on this matter, may I just say to him that there is no question but that there was a broken pledge with a named pair—a pledge which was honoured in the first Division and not in the second? I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether as Prime Minister, he proposes to keep his ill-gotten gain at any price.
The Prime Minister
I do not agree with the right hon. Lady. It is not the case, as we understand the situation, that there was a broken pledge. On the evening I saw the right hon. Lady, when I had returned from Scotland and saw her within half an hour, I had not acquainted myself with the full facts, because I was anxious to see her quickly. Having acquainted myself with the full facts, I am afraid that I cannot accept her version of the matter. [Interruption.] The Chief Whip would probably like to say a lot about it, but what should restrain both sides of the House is the fact that we have to work together if parliamentary democracy is to continue. [column 1664]
I do not think that it would help to have a public version of all that went on. I would prefer, if possible, to see the usual channels restored in other ways. After all, there will be an occasion in the decades to come when the Opposition will be in Government. [Hon. Members: “Never.” ] Well, some time. I should like to persuade the right hon. Lady that it is not our view that a pledge was broken on this occasion.
Mrs. Thatcher
indicated dissent.
The Prime Minister
If I cannot persuade the right hon. Lady, I am afraid that the issue must rest there for the time being.
Mr. Heffer
When my right hon. Friend next makes a ministerial broad-cast, will he explain to the nation why on every occasion that the Conservative Party has no policy to offer the nation it resorts to smears and slanders such as equating the Labour Party with either the Gestapo or East European countries? Is it not time that the nation was informed by a broadcast of what social democracy really means and how we are the greatest defenders of our democratic rights and liberties?
The Prime Minister
I listened to that part of the right hon. Lady's speech yesterday, but I do not think that the House took it very seriously. I am not at all sure that I should want to spend time on a broadcast on this matter. I am not aware that in the Iron Curtain countries to which the right hon. Lady referred there is a free Press with the kind of criticism of the Government that we see here every day. I am not aware that people can move freely about between their jobs nor—and this is the ultimate sanction which the right hon. Lady herself may be able to secure support for some time—are they free, as are the people of this country, to change their Government. If she really believes that we resemble an Iron Curtain country, all I can say is that that kind of exaggeration will be treated with derision.
Mr. Montgomery
When the Prime Minister next makes a ministerial broadcast, will he tell the British people that the Government will not accept the view being put forward by trade unions—that we should have non-elected local councillors? Will he reaffirm his belief again [column 1665]and state categorically, that all local councillors must be elected through the ballot box?
The Prime Minister
I have not studied that particular matter but, as the hon. Gentleman formulates it, I would accept what he says.
NATO Secretary-General
Q2. Mr. Banks
asked the Prime Minister when he next expects to meet the Secretary-General of NATO.
The Prime Minister
I have no plans to meet the Secretary-General in the near future. But my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary met him at the North Atlantic Council meeting in Oslo on 20th and 21st May; and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence is seeing him today at the meeting of the NATO Defence Planning Committee in Brussels.
Mr. Banks
What assurance will the Prime Minister give the Secretary-General that he will not cheat the country out of its proper and vital defence rôle by implementing any part of the Labour Party programme on defence to appease the Marxist members in his party, an action for which he has no mandate and which the great majority of people will deplore?
The Prime Minister
When I have the pleasure of meeting Dr. Luns we do not conduct our conversations on that basis. I think that the general NATO attitude towards Britain is that she is making a full and proper contribution to a unified defence system. I have had no complaint on any other score; and I doubt that we shall be discussing those matters.
Mr. Dalyell
Will the Prime Minister have a word with Dr. Luns about the SNP commitment to a separate Scottish air force? He might even pass on some of the well informed speeches which my hon. Friends hope to make this afternoon on the operational efficiency and costs of a tartan air force.
The Prime Minister
When Dr. Luns and I meet we discuss matters of more immediate practical importance than that, but if the Scottish nationalists would like some assistance, I shall ask the Secretary [column 1666]of State for Defence to give them some idea of what the cost for a separate air force would be. It might frighten them a little.
Mr. Tebbit
When the Prime Minister meets the Secretary-General will he discuss with him the fact that in recent weeks it has emerged from his own Government's estimates that Russian spending on defence is very much higher than we believed it to be when we conducted our own defence reviews? In view of this, should we not conduct another review to see whether it is necessary for us to spend something faintly approaching the 11 per cent. or 12 per cent. of GNP that the Russians spend on defence?
The Prime Minister
I do not think that the Soviet defence capacity has been underestimated. What has been underestimated is the proportion of the Soviet GDP that it involves. According to the latest figures, it looks as though the Russians have had to absorb about 11 per cent. or 12 per cent. of their GDP per annum, but this does not make any difference to the assumption which has been made by the chiefs of staff and others of the actual size of the Soviet capability. It has been increasing in recent years, and this has not been disguised.
Mr. Watt
When the Prime Minister meets the Secretary-General, will he let him know that the proposed air force of the Scottish Parliament will be one that is relevant to the needs of Scotland and suitable for patrolling the fishing limits around our shores? Can he tell us when he will place some orders for Jetstream aircraft with Scottish Aviation Ltd. for aircraft suitable for such a purpose now?
The Prime Minister
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman has assumed the rôle of Shadow Minister of Defence, but if he has I salute him and congratulate him on his maiden speech. I would say to him that I hope that the people of Scotland will believe that their defence needs are adequately covered by the defence arrangements for the United Kingdom. I hope that they will not listen to the rather silly nonsense which is talked about setting up a separate defence service, presumably with another army, navy and air force, to protect the Scottish people.
[column 1667]GOVERNOR OF THE BANK OF ENGLAND
Q3. Mr. Watkinson
asked the Prime Minister if he will meet the Governor of the Bank of England.
The Prime Minister
I have no plans to meet the Governor in the immediate future. But my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer maintains close contact with him.
Mr. Watkinson
When my right hon. Friend next meets the Governor of the Bank of England will he discuss with him the pivotal rôle of the Bank, the Government and industry in the oncoming upturn? Will he take care not to repeat the blunders of the Barber Administration and ensure complete control over the money supply during the coming period? Will he also issue the strongest directive to the banking system that investment funds should find their way into productive industry?
The Prime Minister
I take my hon. Friend's last point completely. I hope that with the upturn that is coming that will be so.
As regards control of the money supply, I hope that we can learn from the mistakes and excesses of the previous Administration.
The House should absorb the figures of the increase in the money supply last time because they hold a great lesson for us. In 1973 the increase in the money supply—[An Hon. Member: “Reading.” ] yes, I am reading—was 28.5 per cent.; in March 1974 it was 25.2 per cent.; in March 1975 it had been reduced to 10.7 per cent. and in March 1976 to 9.6 per cent. That is the reason why we had the terrible burst of inflation in 1974 and 1975 and why it is coming down so fast now——
Mr. Powell
The right hon. Gentleman has got it right.
The Prime Minister
—aided by the pay policy. I do not want to make relations between the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) and the Opposition Front Bench any worse.
Mr. Lawson
In view of the Prime Minister's great interest in and long experience of these matters and in view of [column 1668]his continued assertions that sterling is at present under-valued, will he tell the House precisely what he considers the right value of sterling to be?
The Prime Minister
There was a time when I used to read the hon. Gentleman with some interest. I never then heard him make such a suggestion, and he should not do so now. The hon. Gentleman knows very well that it would be foolish for me to make such an assumption.