TRADES UNION CONGRESS
Q1. Mr. Frank R. White
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the TUC.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson)
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) on 23rd March, Sir.
Mr. White
Is my right hon. Friend aware that my constituency has the greatest concentration of paper mills in the country and that local trade unionists and management are extremely concerned about the present state of the industry? In particular, does he realise that they fear that the import and dumping of paper from Scandinavian countries above the agreed quotas and from non-traditional suppliers such as Brazil can lead to an industrial collapse similar to that of the textile industry? Is my right hon. Friend aware——
Mr. Speaker
Order. That is enough to go on with.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend may be aware that representatives of the paper industry and the Society of Graphical and Allied Trades, under the chairmanship of the NEDO, discussed yesterday the whole question of dumping with representatives of the Departments of Industry and Trade. They were assured that the Government were anxious to have any evidence about dumping and would follow up any worthwhile information. If my hon. Friend has any further information, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade will be only too pleased to examine it.
Mrs. Thatcher
Since I understand that Harold Wilsonthe Prime Minister may now be resigning before the Budget, will be explain to both the TUC and the House why his Government, more than any other Government in history, have increased the burden of [column 1098]taxation on the average working man's wage packet?
The Prime Minister
I have dealt with all these matters in my discussions with the TUC. They have been the subject of continuing discussion—because we have had discussion rather than the confrontation which the right hon. Lady's Government had. But the one thing on which the right hon. Lady, with her total lack of gumption in all political matters, has exceeded even herself is in her attempt to interfere with union elections—a move that can only be counter-productive.
Mr. Wrigglesworth
Will my right hon. Friend consult the TUC about the involvement of political parties in trade union elections? Does he agree that it is thoroughly undesirable that the Communist Party, the Conservative Party, or any other party should be directly involved in the internal affairs of trade unions? Is it not a typical example of the cack-handed way in which the Tory Party treats the trade unions for it to be involved in this way?
The Prime Minister
I do not associate myself with every adjective in my hon. Friend's question. My discussions with the TUC have been useful, productive, and always on serious matters, not on the frivolities of Her Majesty's Opposition.
Mr. Crouch
Will the Prime Minister tell us whether he intends to advise his successor about the need for continual contact with this important element in our society—the TUC—and whether he will also take note of some of the representations that it has been making in the Press about the need for the TUC to keep in closer contact with Parliament? Is there not a case for some reform of the structure of this House and the other place, to allow for such consultation?
The Prime Minister
Yes, Sir. I think that the hon. Gentleman knows that I have always taken with great seriousness any representations from him, whether made in the House or outside it. I am sure that the TUC recognises, as he recognises, the great importance of the relationship that has been established between the Government and the trade union leadership. I agree with what the hon. Gentleman has said. It is very important that none of the trade union leaders ever loses sight of the responsibilities of this House.
[column 1099]SWITZERLAND
Q2. Mr. McCrindle
asked the Prime Minister if he will seek to pay an official visit to Switzerland.
The Prime Minister
I have no plans to do so, Sir.
Mr. McCrindle
Will the Prime Minister seek an early opportunity to go to Switzerland and there discuss with Mr. Alexander Solzhenitsyn his views on the state of Britain in 1976? In the meantime, will he comment on Mr. Solzhenitsyn 's view that during the period when he has been Prime Minister the standing of this country has descended to that of Romania, or even Uganda?
The Prime Minister
As one who, with certain other Members of this House and other people, played a big part in trying to aid the release of Mr. Solzhenitsyn, I respect his right to say whatever he pleases. That is a right that he enjoys now but that he did not enjoy previously. I respect his right to say whatever he wishes, but I do not agree with it.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton
It is based on experience.
The Prime Minister
It is based on experience in the Soviet Union. He has no experience of this country. He is entitled to say it, but I totally reject what he says about this country, and so, I think, do the vast majority of our fellow citizens. If Conservative members think they have any gain to secure out of following what he says and exploiting it, they will be proved very badly wrong.
Mr. Faulds
As the Prime Minister will be spending a great deal more time in the House, and as I have always been 150 per cent. a Harold man, will he, instead of retreating to the traditional position below the Gangway, come and join us up here on the Back Benches, where we have a wee place for him and where, although the view may be deplorable, the company is very congenial?
The Prime Minister
The company is certain congenial, and I welcome my hon. Friend's remarks. If he has always been a 150 per cent. Harold Wilson man, for the first time I am beginning to understand what inflation means. As one who has tried to help my hon. Friend in [column 1100]various capacities, I hope to be able to continue to do so wherever I am sitting.
Mr. Pardoe
If the Prime Minister will return to Switzerland for a moment, will he say where, in the Western world, there is a better managed economy than the Swiss economy, and whether he believes that this has any connection with two vital ingredients of the Swiss system of government, namely, a greater degree of decentralisation to the regions than any other country in Europe and, secondly, a greater degree of power sharing by all parties in government?
The Prime Minister
I am not quite sure whether the hon. Gentleman would support all that they have done in the past about the equal rights of women, but I note what he says. Also, of course, the Swiss do not carry any of the burden, that we have cheerfully shouldered, of the North Atlantic Alliance and NATO. That is one thing. Switzerland, of course, is a powerful financial centre, as we all recognise—a haven for many things. However, I am so friendly to the Swiss at this and all other times that I shall refrain from quoting, as the hon. Gentleman did not do so, the immortal words of Harry Lime, in “Third Man” , about their principal contribution to history.
Mr. Anderson
Why bother to go abroad? Is my right hon. Friend aware that if he were to pay an unofficial visit to Wales, after his redeployment, he would receive a very warm welcome?
Mr. Speaker
Order. The Prime Minister may well have a welcome there, but Switzerland and Wales are not connected.
FRANCE (PRIME MINISTER)
Q3. Mr. Corbett
asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his meeting with the Prime Minister of France.
The Prime Minister
I have had no recent meeting with the Prime Minister of France, Sir. I did, however, met the French Foreign Minister on 18th March, when we discussed one or two of the matters likely to arise at the forthcoming meeting of the European Council in Luxembourg. M. Sauvagnargues also had talks with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
[column 1101]Mr. Corbett
When my right hon. Friend next meets the French Prime Minister, will he press upon him the urgent necessity completely to change the Common Market's common agricultural policy before it degenerates into a further mess and sweeps away the Market with it?
The Prime Minister
This matter was fully discussed in the recent meeting of the Council of Agricultural Ministers. The House will be aware of the line taken by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. There is a great concern not only on the part of the British Government but on the part of the German Federal Chancellor and others about the extent to which this is now developing. There have already been preliminary discussions—which I hope will be followed up in the European Assembly—about the long-overdue reforms and long-overdue economies and what I also hope will be the long-overdue rejection of this system of total standardisation of everything we eat, drink, consume, buy and sell, because I believe that the strength of the European Community and of Europe should be in the diversity of our cultures and what we all have to contribute, and not a standardised uniformity.
Mr. Molloy
Does my right hon. Friend not agree that the remarkable achievement to which he has contributed so much, in getting a working agreement with the trade unions of this country in combating inflation——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman is on the wrong Question. This Question relates to the Prime Minister of France.
Mr. Molloy
What I was about to ask my right hon. Friend was, in view of what I said recently, Mr. Speaker, whether he thinks it is important that we maintain this first-class co-operation, with the TUC, and that we should see to it that it is not endangered by any CAP action which increases food prices.
The Prime Minister
I find it difficult to single out a relationship to the Question, Mr. Speaker, as you do—though you are usually more subtle than I am in these matters. I do not think that the matter arises from this Question. If [column 1102]my hon. Friend is suggesting that I give any advice to the French Prime Minister on this question, I must tell him that I have already said that I shall not give any gratuitous advice to my successor, whoever he may be. Still less would I ever give any to the French Prime Minister.
Mr. Adley
Before relinquishing his office, will the right hon. Gentleman reaffirm his Government's commitment to ensuring the success of the Anglo-French Concorde project, and will he consider inviting his successor, whoever he may be, to take an early flight in the aircraft?
The Prime Minister
The answer to first part of that supplementary question is “Yes” , and the answer to the second part, as I have recently had such an invitation, is also “Yes” .
Mr. Frank Allaun
Do the Government maintain their opposition to the dangerous proposal for a joint Anglo-French nuclear force, which would ultimately mean a German finger on the nuclear trigger? Will the Government maintain that opposition, even if France should rejoin NATO?
The Prime Minister
At no time as Prime Minister have I heard any suggestions of an Anglo-French joint nuclear capability. I do not believe that it has ever been put forward during the period of a Conservative Government, either. If it had been put forward during my premiership I would have totally rejected it, and I cannot think that President Giscard would have considered it, either. It is not a runner. I cannot imagine any Prime Minister or Government of this country accepting it, quite apart from the warnings which my hon. Friend gave, and which I gave many years ago, about the danger of anything that might look like a German finger on the trigger.
Mr. Marten
If the Prime Minister sees the Prime Minister of France, will he reflect that the views of the British people are very much in line with those of the Gaullist Party, that if the Common Market continues to develop it should develop on the lines of Europe des patries?
As it is now 3.30 p.m., may I congratulate the Prime Minister on the dexterity with which he has tried to answer, not [column 1103]always successfully, some of the Questions put in this House?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his concluding remarks. He has always been most courteous. Though, Mr. Speaker, you are in fact the custodian of the stop watch of this House, nevertheless, I thank the hon. Gentleman.
I have nothing in common, nor, in my estimation, have Her Majesty's Government, either now or at any future time, with Gaullist doctrines on these matters—nor, I thought, had the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). Where the hon. Gentleman has expressed his doubts about the Common Market and where we have sought to reform it from within, it has been from a different stimulus than the negative position taken for a long time by President de Gaulle.
Mr. Crouch
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I propose to you that candles be now brought?
Mr. Speaker
I suggest that hon. Members at the back of the Chamber move down lower. I am sure that efforts will be made to restore the lighting.