Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

HC Standing Committee [Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill]

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC Standing Committee H [3-12]
Editorial comments: 1030-1052. Complete proceedings reproduced.
Importance ranking: Minor
Word count: 2718
[column 3]

SUPERANNUATION (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL

STANDING COMMITTEE H OFFICIAL REPORT Wednesday, 12th April, 1967 [Mr George Rogers in the Chair]

10.30 a.m.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot)

I hope that this will be a formal Motion, but I beg to move,

That if the proceedings on the Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill are not completed at this day's Sitting the Committee do meet on Wednesday next at half-past Ten o'clock.

Mrs. Margaret Thatcher

I trust that this Motion will be superfluous. I am sure it will be, unless the Niall MacDermotFinancial Secretary makes really long speeches.

Question put and agreed to. Clause 1.—(Gratuities and allowances to civil servants and others injured abroad in civil disturbances etc.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mrs. Thatcher

There are just two points on this Clause and the first is that it seems that the Clause gives payments in respect of future or past injuries so long as they were not suffered before 14th July, 1949. It is not clear that the Clause is deemed to have that effect, and what about payments for injuries until this time?

Mr. MacDermot

Up to now payments have been made on the construction of the previous Statute, but we are now advised that that may be wrong. That is the reason. A rather wide interpretation was put on the provision that the person was required to be on duty and we have legislated so that there is statutory sanction for the payments which have already taken place. It will be open to anyone who did not put in a claim to put in one now.

Mrs. Thatcher

My second point is whether the Financial Secretary is satisfied that the wording in paragraph (aa) [column 4]includes every circumstance. I would suggest to the Financial Secretary that it is a very curious wording which, at one stage, seems to imply that the injury must have occurred as a result of serious and widespread internal disturbance. My question is, why both “serious” and “widespread” ? It could be something very serious, but nevertheless small and local. Surely this would be covered by the phrase “sporadic political disturbances” ? Does this wording cover every kind of injury likely to arise while the civil servant was on duty?

Mr. MacDermot

We have tried to find correct wording, but I am inclined to agree with the hon. Lady that the kind of situation which she describes would be covered by the later words or as a result of acts of the local population, or because of what the Bill describes as “sporadic disturbances” . If she can think of instances which she suggests would not be covered, I should be very happy to look at the wording; but I think she will find that we have achieved our object.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 3.—(Effect of pension in respect of public office on remuneration in judicial or related office.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mrs. Thatcher

Just another quick point. The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum points to a precedent for this provision which, in a way, reduces remuneration payable where a person has a previous public pension. It refers to the Judges Remuneration Act, 1965, but when that precedent was before the House, there was no discussion on it whatsoever at any stage. I would like to ask the Financial Secretary if this has given rise to any difficulty in practice. Would this preclude able people from coming forward for the jobs enumerated in subsection (4) of this Clause? Many of these appointments are paid on a much lower basis than that of judges, and we might be precluding people from coming forward on a part-time basis although [column 5]their income would not necessarily be down.

Mr. MacDermot

The provision about High Court judges has not given rise to any difficulty. The point which the hon. Lady makes about the availability of suitable people to take on the jobs listed has continuously been in the mind of the Lord Chancellor and he approves of this provision. I do not think that any difficulties should be caused in the recruitment of people to the lower judicial bench.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 4.—(Governors' pensions.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mrs. Thatcher

I would like to ask if the provisions in this Clause have retrospective effect right from 1947, because I believe that this Clause was originally intended to cover a specific case. Does it cover all past cases?

Mr. MacDermot

I am assured that it does but I will look further into the point to make sure and will let the hon. Lady know.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 5.—(Palestine and Pakistan pensions.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mrs. Thatcher

I have a similar question about this Clause. I understand that there are a number of people who were employed by our Government in the former mandated territory of Palestine who have received neither extra-Statutory pension from us, nor anything from the Israeli Government. I believe that the Colonial Office will be acquainted with this because money was paid into a blocked account. The Israeli Government accepted liability only if a person concerned was resident in Israel. So, people neither resident here nor in Israel but who had served the former mandated territory of Palestine, are without any pension. Does this Clause enable them to draw such a pension? [column 6]

There was a case, for example, of a former police officer, under the Government of the Palestine mandated territory, who took up residence in Australia. Under the arrangements with the Israeli Government in 1950, I understand, this officer's pension was paid into the blocked account, and he could get it only if he returned to Israel to claim it. Obviously, he could not do so and, therefore, he was without income which had been an essential part of his calculations. I understand that the Overseas Colonial Pensioners' Association has taken up this matter.

These people served our Government, and we should see that they get the pensions due to them for that service. I understand that the case I have just mentioned is not an isolated one. If an immediate answer cannot be found, could I ask the Financial Secretary if we could have some further correspondence about this before Report stage of the Bill? I am sure he will agree that these people are entitled to a pension from our Government.

Mr. MacDermot

If the hon. Lady will let me have particulars of the individual case I will look at them. This covers, I think, the individual case, although I am not aware of it, but not cases where payments have been made extra-statutorily. We intend to assume responsibility for those cases where there was a legal liability on the Governments concerned. In the particular case to which the hon. Lady has referred there may be reasons other than deficiencies in our legal powers for not making the payments, but I will look into the case and let her know.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 7.—(Extension of superannuation provisions of National Health Service Acts.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mrs. Thatcher

Could we have some indication of the numbers of people who will be covered by what looks like a minor extension of provisions of the National Health Service Acts? It would be helpful to know about the numbers [column 7]of people covered and for whom they work.

Mr. MacDermot

I had a list of the bodies concerned but I seem to have mislaid it. The answer is probably not more than a thousand in all. As one example, I could quote members of the Dental Estimates Board who have already been treated as superannuable. But there are certain—if I may so describe them—fringe bodies. There are other forms of health service whether or not provided under the National Health Service Act. The Medical Research Council is another of these bodies, as is the Public Health Laboratory Service.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 8 and 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 10.—(Children's pensions out of Members' Contributory Pension Fund.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mrs. Thatcher

We should not let this Clause pass without some comment. It is concerned with our own pension provisions, albeit in a minor way, but one may have better provisions than those for people serving the Government in other categories and I think that this very good provision should also be available to other people with public service pensions.

Mr. MacDermot

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, and I referred to this point in my speech on the Second Reading of the Bill. It is a provision we have been asked for by the trustees of the scheme. I am told that there are precedents for it in other parts of the public sector.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11.—(Pensions of certain persons transferring to different employment.)

The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mrs. Shirley Williams)

I beg to move, in page 14, line 12, after ‘10’, to insert ‘or 11’. [column 8]

The purpose of this Amendment is to make clear that part-time employment in teaching qualifies for superannuation. There are approximately about 41,000 part-time teachers in the education service, and many of them working part-time for long periods because they are married women with family responsibilities. Consequently, there has been a good deal of demand from the teachers professional groups for interchange arrangements for part-time service.

In reply to a Question by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle) on 2nd March, my right hon. Friend stated that arrangements were being made as quickly as possible for part-time teachers in primary and secondary schools, and this Amendment makes clear that they are covered, because the Teachers Superannuation Act does not make it completely clear that those serving part-time are covered for interchange purposes as well as those giving full-time service. This is not a controversial Amendment, and I hope it will have support from all sides of the Committee.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

10.45 a.m.

Mr. Donald Anderson

The Committee is making good progress so I shall be brief. This Clause, which I welcome, makes a number of amendments to Section 2 of the 1948 Act and subsequent Acts dealing with the interchange of pension rights. They are matters of detail but I regard them as important because we should do all we can to remove obstacles in connection with superannuation on moving from one profession to another.

Since the 1948 Act a number of such obstacles have been removed, but a number remain. I found this to my own cost, after I had spent five years in the Civil Service and then went to university to teach for a year. I was able to have a transfer following my public service period, but when I tried to transfer from the F.S.S.U. scheme to the House of Commons scheme this proved impossible. I hope my own mobility has come to an end for the moment, but nevertheless, I hope this and other examples will be looked at to ensure greater flexibility [column 9]and the removal of obstacles in the superannuation field.

Subsection (2) deals with personnel who have had teaching service in both England and Scotland and, as I understand it, removes the obstacle to mobility there. I am glad this can be done, because I think it is particularly important in the case of teachers that they can have this freedom of movement and there are no artificial obstacles in the way.

Subsection (6) deals with the charging of interest, and here again the object is to promote flexibility. We know that interest is a basic consideration throughout the whole field of superannuation. I am glad the subsection does not lay down the actual rate of interest to be charged but leaves the matter open with the words “with or without interest” . It is most important that there should be flexibility in this matter, and one of the serious defects in teachers' superannuation is that the interest credited to the account is tied by Statute to 3½ per cent. I hope this can be looked at. On Monday, for example, in answer to a Written Question, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that this interest rate of 3½ per cent. might be varied in a subsequent Bill. Would not this Bill be an appropriate opportunity to look again at this interest rate?

Mrs. Williams

In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Anderson), whom I congratulate on having come to rest, I hope for a long time——

Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles

Rest?

Mrs. Williams

I mean purely in the sense of not having to move on, unlike hon. Gentlemen opposite, if I may say so.

We are conscious of the effect on valuations of the existing rate, and of the binding effect of the 3½ per cent. having been written into earlier legislation. I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall [column 10]be looking closely at this and will consider including it in the Bill at the Report stage.

Mrs. Thatcher

Would the Shirley Williamshon. Lady also gently consult with the Financial Secretary and remind him that yesterday the James CallaghanChancellor of the Exchequer put up interest rates to taxpayers who do not have the money to pay their taxes immediately. If he did that against the citizen he might do something for the citizen who happens to be a teacher. After all, a teacher might find himself paying interest to the Exchequer as a result of yesterday's Budget but still receiving less interest under this Clause.

Mr. MacDermot

May I assure the hon. Lady that the Chancellor has only put up the rate of interest to those who have had the money but who have not paid their taxes out of that money.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 12 to 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill, as amended, to be reported.

Mr. MacDermot

Mr. Rogers, it only remains for me, if I may on behalf of the Committee, to express our gratitude to you for the way in which you have presided over our deliberations. I think our gratitude is greater than usual. If anything we have put more work upon you than we have done ourselves.

Mrs. Thatcher

Mr. Rogers, I should like to second that and also to add that we should have got through more quickly if the Financial Secretary had had his answers ready!

The Chairman

Thank you very much for that undeserved praise. I cannot say that this Bill has placed a great strain upon my shoulders.

Committee rose at eight minutes to Eleven o'clock. [column 11]

The following Members attended the Committee:

Rogers , Mr. George (Chairman)

Anderson , Mr.

Ashley , Mr.

Bagier , Mr.

Evans , Mr. Ioan L.

Fortescue , Mr.

Giles , Rear-Admiral Morgan

Huckfield , Mr.

Jones , Mr. Alec

MacDermot , Mr.

Mackenzie , Mr. Gregor

Marten , Mr.

Pym , Mr.

Scott , Mr.

Taverne , Mr.

Thatcher, Mrs.

Walker , Mr. Harold

Williams , Mrs. Shirley