Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

HC PQ [Local Government]

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC [722/1841-54]
Editorial comments: Around 1430-1510. MT spoke at c1845.
Importance ranking: Minor
Word count: 5064
[column 1841]


Derelict Land (Colliery Spoil Heaps)

1. Mr. Boardman

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what plans he now has for dealing with derelict land and, in particular, colliery spoil heaps.

The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Richard Crossman)

I am anxious to see much quicker progress on this and I hope to be able to make grant available to local authorities for this purpose in the context of the present review of local government finance.

Mr. Boardman

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will he bear in mind that the existence of the spoil heaps in the coalfields is due to the exploitation of one of our greatest national assets and that it is strongly felt by the local authorities concerned that the removal or landscaping of the spoil heaps ought now to be accepted as a national charge?

Mr. Crossman

Yes, I am aware of that. In our survey we discovered that no less than 51,000 acres are suitable for treatment and I hope that I shall be able to give a specific grant, but I am afraid that my hon. Friend must wait for the announcement of that until we come to the second Rating Bill.

Sub-Standard Property, Wellington

2. Mr. William Yates

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he has decided to give loan sanction [column 1842]to Wellington Urban District Council in order that it may bring up to date its sub-standard property in Regent Street and Urban Gardens, Wellington.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Robert Mellish)

The council asked my right hon. Friend on 2nd December to approve a scheme in principle.

It may be necessary to consult it on one or two aspects but he hopes to write soon to say that a formal application for loan sanction will be approved.

Mr. Yates

I take this opportunity to say that that news will be received by these people as one of the best bits of news which they have heard this Christmas time.


6. Mr. Allason

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is aware of the severe rise in rates likely to arise next year in counties with an expanding population; and whether the remedies that he proposes will be in time to take effect in 1966–67.

Mr. Crossman

I cannot forecast next year's rates. Although there will be no changes in the grant system until the following year, there will be relief in 1966–67 for ratepayers with small incomes.

Mr. Allason

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all ratepayers in countries with an expanding population are going to suffer very severely in the coming year, as year by year they have to pay more of the rateborne expenditure and less and less falls on the Exchequer?

Mr. Crossman

That would not be strictly true. I am not going to under-rate the burden of rates—I have often repeated that it is very heavy—but the assistance we can give to the general ratepayer will come in our second Bill. Our first Bill was only an interim relief for the 2 million worst-off families.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Although the right hon. Gentleman says that he cannot forecast next year's rates, did he not forecast an average increase in rates throughout the country of 10 per cent. next year when he spoke at Plymouth on 20th November?

[column 1843]

Mr. Crossman

I said at Plymouth, and I think it was a reasonable thing, that I thought that 10 per cent. was the kind of increase likely. It might be more in some areas and less in others. I cannot make a very precise prediction on that.

Local Authorities

(Rateable Values)

8. Mr. Armstrong

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what proposals he has to give financial assistance to local authorities similar to those in West Durham where there has been a decline in rateable value because of the run down in the mining industry.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. James MacColl)

Where, as is the case in West Durham, the local authorities get rate-deficiency grant, it automatically compensates for a loss of rateable value.

Mr. Armstrong

Is my hon. Friend aware that in this area additional burdens are now being placed upon local authorities because of the tremendous scars left by the mining industry, which has declined so rapidly? Will he continue to look at this question so that local authorities, which are already doing all that they can to rehabilitate the area, may have extra help?

Mr. MacColl

As my hon. Friend knows, I visited the area during the Recess and was very much seized of its problems. We will certainly keep them in mind.

Woolwich Arsenal Site


12. Mr. Hamling

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what discussions his Department has had with the Greater London Council and the borough of Greenwich on the redevelopment of the Woolwich Arsenal site.

Mr. Mellish

Both authorities are represented on a liaison group with officers of the Government Departments concerned and of the public transport undertakings. This group meets from time to time to review progress and to consult on major problems.

Industrial Plants, Birmingham

(Noxious Fumes)

13. Mr. Julius Silverman

asked the Minister of Housing and Local [column 1844]Government what steps he will take to protect the people of Cranemore Street and other adjacent streets in Nechells, Birmingham, from the emission of noxious fumes and gases by nearby industrial plants.

Mr. MacColl

The industrial plants in the area are under the regular supervision of either the Alkali Inspectorater or the public health inspectors of the Birmingham City Council. At the sulphuric acid works, alterations now being carried out should improve the quality of the chimney gases and methods of improving their dispersal are under consideration.

Mr. Silverman

Is the Minister aware that so far there have been no substantial improvements and that the emission of gas results in the aggravation of bronchial complaints suffered by people in the area? Is he further aware that there is a nasty smell in the neighbourhood, that vegetation dies because of the emission of these fumes and that local authorities are completely dissatisfied with what is being done? I hope that the Alkali Inspectorate will look at the situation again.

Mr. MacColl

It is true that any industrial area with heavy chemical industries suffers from these problems, which create a nuisance to residents in the area. The firm has made various experiments to try to improve the position and my right hon. Friend will keep an eye on the situation.

Noxious Fumes (Emission)

14. Mr. Julius Silverman

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now introduce legislation to amend and strengthen the Alkali Act in order to protect the health of people menaced by the emission of noxious fumes and gases.

Mr. Crossman

No, Sir. I have and reason to believe that the levels of emission permitted from processes registered under the Alkali Act an dangerous to health.

Mr. Silverman

Does the Minister realise that that is contrary to the experience of people, not only in this area but in many other areas? Will he consider whether the power to deal with industrial emissions could be dealt with by local authorities, perhaps by an extension of the Clean Air Act, 1956?

[column 1845]

Mr. Crossman

I will consider that, but I must say that I have doubts, because these times, although extremely unpleasant, according to a special inquiry which I have had made, show no evidence of danger to health. This is similar to sea pollution where unpleasantness and violation of amenity is not necessarily bad for health.

New Local Tax

Mrs. Thatcher

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government upon what basis his new local tax will be assessed.

Mr. Crossman

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to her Question on 14th December.

Mrs. Thatcher

In that reply, the right hon. Gentleman said that the future structure of the local tax would depend on the future structure of local government. When will he bring forward his proposals for that?

Mr. Crossman

I have nothing more to add. We want a thorough investigation into the tax and local government question. All that I said was that the two hang together. In my view, we are unlikely to get a new tax without a radical reform of local government.

Dame Irene Ward

Will the Minister's Answer apply to the new proposals for the Tyneside area in view of the fact that the whole place is being blown up and that there will be nothing left of anything?

Mr. Crossman

Great as I believe the effects of boundary reorganisation to be, I do not think that a fair description of what will happen is to call it a total explosion if the Tyneside accepts the proposals which I have tentatively put forward.

Dame Irene Ward

I hope that it will not.

Mr. Crossman

There is still some time before what the hon. Lady describes as an explosion will happen. I have made it clear that what we are doing under the existing Boundary Commission must go on.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Does not the Minister's earlier reply mean that, like [column 1846]the Prime Minister, he has not the faintest idea of any alternative tax to rates?

Mr. Crossman

In replying seriously to the right hon. Gentleman, what it means is this. We should face the fact that if we continue, as we must do, to try to make the rates less regressive and remain content with rates as a tax, more and more of the cost will have to be moved to the central Government, and that means a decline in local democracy.

21. Mr. Ridsdale

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether his proposals for a new local tax to replace rating will extend to water rates.

Mr. Crossman

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the Question by the hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) on 14th December.

Mr. Ridsdale

Will the relief for ratepayers with small fixed incomes apply to the increase in water rates particularly caused by the last Budget which will fall very heavily on those least able to bear it?

Mr. Crossman

I will not enter into a semantic debate with the hon. Gentleman, but, in my view, water rates are not technically rates but a charge for a commodity.

Rating System

(Comprehensive Review)

22. Mr. Ridsdale

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government on what date he will announce his proposals for a comprehensive review of the rating system; and from what dates these proposals will take effect.

Mr. Crossman

The Rating Bill embodies the first instalment of the Government's proposals. I expect to announce the remainder early next year.

Mr. Ridsdale

As it seems so easy for the Minister to make a general criticism of the rating system without giving detailed proposals, may I ask him to assure the House that it is his intention to bring these detailed proposals to the House before the next General Election?

Mr. Crossman

We shall bring them before the House. I hope that the Bill will be before the House in the spring. [column 1847]We are now having discussions with the treasurers before finalising our proposals on the reorganisation of the grant system.

Mr. Alfred Morris

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his sentiments against such regressive taxes as rates have been widely welcomed in the country and by people of all persuasions?

Mr. Bessell

Has the Minister given serious consideration to proposals for a system based upon rating and taxation of site values? Further, will he at least consider a survey in an industrial area similar to the one which took place at Whitstable?

Mr. Crossman

We are certainly willing to consider the possibility, although I doubt whether another survey would be valuable. The hon. Member should study the proposals for the Land Commission and, perhaps, the Committee stage of the Bill before he makes up his mind whether site value taxation has been replaced by betterment tax as a desirable method.

Oxford Development Plan

23. Mr. Woodhouse

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he will announce his decision on the Oxford development plan.

Mr. Crossman

I am still not in a position to announce a decision, but it should not be much longer.

Mr. Woodhouse

Is the Minister aware of the impatience and indignation which are universally felt in Oxford at the interminable delay in his decision? Can he give any good reason for the delay? In particular, can he say whether he is having second thoughts about a road across Christchurch Meadow?

Mr. Crossman

I have had no sign of the feelings that the hon. Member describes in Oxford. Oxford quite rightly is frustrated by over 10 years of delay in the decisions about its development plan. This is an extremely difficult decision and I make no apology whatever for delaying it to try to get the best possible solution for Oxford City.

Footpath Survey

25. Mr. Blenkinsop

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will use his powers under the National [column 1848]Parks Act to expedite the preparation of maps and statements relating to the footpath survey.

Mr. MacColl

My right hon. Friend is ready to consider using his power of direction if it is in fact likely to secure faster progress. This may not be the case where a large number of rights of way are in dispute.

Mr. Blenkinsop

In welcoming that reply, may I ask my hon. Friend to follow up his inquiries to see whether something cannot be done, particularly in the case of those counties which show no interest in getting on with the job and which are over 10 years behindhand?

Mr. MacColl

My right hon. Friend is aware of the delays and is actively considering the best way of speeding things up.

26. Mr. Blenkinsop

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will appoint staff that could be seconded to assist county councils in completing their footpath surveys.

Mr. MacColl

This is the county councils' responsibility, and my right hon. Friend thinks the work is best done by their own staffs.

Mr. Blenkinsop

Is not my hon. Friend aware that in some instances counties make the excuse that they do not have staff to carry out this work? In that case, cannot something be done to help them?

Mr. MacColl

I appreciate that. On the other hand, this is essentially work in which local knowledge is important, because it depends upon the assessment of footpaths which are very much a local matter. It is, therefore, difficult to see how help from the centre would speed things up.

Swynnerton Site (Development)

28. Mr. Hugh Fraser

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether, to avoid further delays in the use of the abandoned Royal Ordnance factory site at Swynnerton, he will now permit its limited development for industry and for afforestation, without major prejudice to wider schemes which may or may not develop over the next decade.

[column 1849]

Mr. Crossman

I can well understand the impatience of the right hon. Gentleman, but I am still waiting for the views of the West Midlands Regional Economic Planning Council and local authorities concerned. When they are received, it will be possible to decide whether there should be any big new expansion project in North Staffordshire, and, if so, whether the Swynnerton site should play a part in it.

Mr. Fraser

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that in view of the unlikelihood of anything decisive emerging from these three local authorities—if one includes the City of Stoke-on-Trent—which are at daggers drawn on this issue, it would be better in the national interest to declare that we should go ahead with a modest scheme?

Mr. Crossman

No, I do not think that would be right. I would much rather wait not so much for the local authorities as for the West Midland Regional Council, which can give a much more independent view. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that when that happens, my feeling also is that we much decide about the site, which is looking loathsome and neglected after years of Government delay.

House Building (Statistics)

27. Mr. Costain

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government in which years since 1959 the total number of houses completed was greater than the number of those under construction in the public sector; and whether he will give similar comparative figures for the private sector.

Mr. Mellish

Since 1959, the number of dwellings under construction at the end of the year in Great Britain in the public sector has always exceeded the number completed in the year. In the private sector completions in the year have always exceeded the number under construction at the end of the year. With permission, I will circulate the figures in the Official Report.

Mr. Costain

Does not this prove that private enterprise houses are built quicker than public enterprise houses? Will not the Minister admit that his policy of restricting private enterprise housing is not helping to solve the housing short [column 1850]age? Will not he adopt a different approach?

Mr. Mellish

The hon. Member is talking a lot of nonsense, because 91 per cent. of all public authority building is built by private enterprise. One has, therefore, to ask why, when working for public authorities, private enterprise does not work as fast as when it works for itself.

Mr. Lubbock

Since it is clear that for one reason or another builders are taking longer on local authority contracts than they take on private building, will the hon. Gentleman ask local authorities to include a penalty clause in all their contracts and to enforce it rigidly?

Mr. Mellish

I should not like to commit my right hon. Friend to that one. I was trying to answer the rather stupid point made by the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain).

Sir Harmar Nicholls

Is not the Minister aware that on any building site different decisions have to be taken almost every hour of the day and that to have to refer to somebody else for a decision is bound to take longer than making the decision oneself?

Mr. Mellish

That is not my experience—and I have had quite a lot of experience—of public authority building which private enterprise has built.

Following are the figures:

Note: The figures are for all dwellings i.e. flats as well as houses. A much larger proportion of flats are built in the public sector than in the private sector.

Roads (Dumping of Rubbish)

29. Sir Knox Cunningham

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress has been made by local authorities towards agreement on a scheme to prevent roadside dumping of [column 1851]large articles such as baths, motor cars, cisterns and furniture; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. MacColl

Many councils have acted on the advice given them in Circular No. 8/65 about derelict motor cars, or are considering how best to do so. As regards other bulky articles, my right hon. Friend will get into touch with local authorities again when he has the report of the Working Party on Refuse Collection. This report is now expected to reach him in the spring.

Sir Knox Cunningham

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this nuisance is increasing almost daily in the south of England and will not be ended until all local authorities arrange to collect these articles from householders? Will he ask his right hon. Friend to use all his influence to see that this is done as soon as possible?

Mr. MacColl

The response of local authorities to the circular has been encouraging and my right hon. Friend feels that it is desirable to wait for final advice from the working party before taking final steps.

Mr. Thorpe

Is the Minister aware that many of my constituents are horrified at the prospect of people dumping baths on the highway? Is he aware that there are many villages which want to have running water installed, so that baths can therefore become of greater use? Will he see not only that baths are not dumped on highways, but that electricity, water and drainage are provided so that all the baths can be used?

Mr. MacColl

This is a matter which was relevant to our discussions on the Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Bill, which the House has already passed.

Mr. Manuel

Will my right hon. Friend get in touch with the Northern Ireland Government and find what rigid set of controls they have to make certain that there is no dumping on roadways in Northern Ireland——

Sir Knox Cunningham

Very much better over there.

Mr. Manuel

—or is the poverty over there such that they have nothing to dump?

[column 1852]

Cattle Market, Braintree

30. Mr. Brian Harrison

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will now approve the purchase of the cattle market in Braintree by the Braintree and Bocking Urban District Council.

Mr. MacColl

No, Sir.

Mr. Harrison

Will the Minister reconsider this? Here is an opportunity that will be lost for ever unless loan sanction is granted.

Mr. MacColl

I do not think that the opportunity will be lost for ever, because the local authority can get powers to acquire later if necessary. I agree that the scheme is a good one, but a necessary part of the cutting down of capital commitments is that some degree of priority should be exerted.

Mr. Harrison

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

Howards Road, Birkenhead

31. Mr. Howe

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will cause an inquiry to be held under Section 279 of the Highways Act, 1959, and for the purposes of his functions under that Act, into the reasons why no highway has yet been constructed or effectively made up along the line of Howards Road, Thingwall, Birkenhead.

Mr. MacColl

No, Sir. The hon. and learned Member has sent my right hon. Friend copies of correspondence from which it appears that there is a dispute about the liability for making up this road. My right hon. Friend is investigating the facts of the matter and will get in touch with him when these investigations are complete.

Mr. Howe

I am grateful to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for that reply, but may I ask whether he is aware that the dispute has been going on for many months now and that new and old residents in the road are very anxious to know when something will finally be decided about it? Will he hold his hon. [column 1853]Friend's formidable powers in reserve and be ready to hold an inquiry if it should be necessary to resolve this deadlock?

Mr. MacColl

I do not think that an inquiry would help necessarily, but I quite agree with the hon. and learned Member for Bebington (Mr. Howe) that these problems are very difficult ones to solve in a way which satisfies everyone.

Birkenhead (New Streets)

32. Mr. Howe

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now require the Birkenhead County Borough Council, under Section 157 of the Highways Act, 1959, to make byelaws regulating the construction of new streets in their area that will ensure the proper construction by a building contractor of a new street in front of any houses built by such contractor.

Mr. MacColl

No, Sir. The Birkenhead Council already has in force a set of byelaws regulating the construction of new streets.

New Towns Commission, Crawley


33. Mr. Hordern

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether, in view of the concern over the circumstances of General Sir Neville Brownjohn 's resignation as Chairman of the New Towns Commission for Crawley, he will publish the correspondence between himself and General Brownjohn.

Mr. Crossman

No. But General Brownjohn can of course do so if he wishes.

Mr. Hordern

Does the Minister realise that by his refusal to publish the correspondence between himself and General Sir Neville Brownjohn, although I am sure that the General will be very grateful to hear what the right hon. Gentleman has to say, he has cast a slur upon the reputation of a very distinguished officer and public servant? Does he appreciate that an appointment as Chairman of the New Towns Commission has never been considered previously as a party political appointment, and does he not realise that his new appointment smacks of political jobbery of the worst and most odious kind?

[column 1854]

Mr. Crossman

It seems to me that the slur is going to be cast on the Minister, and not on the General. Of course there is no slur on the General by not publishing the correspondence between him and me. I said that he could publish if he wished. As for the members of the Commission, it seems to me that those should be appointed who have the confidence of the local council irrespective of the Party to which they belong, and that was the principle on which I decided.

Mr. Hordern

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Ministers' reply, I shall seek an early opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment.


35. Mr. Ronald Bell

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he intends to confirm the order submitted by the National Parks Commission to designate the Chilterns as an area of outstanding natural beauty; and why his decision has been delayed.

Mr. Crossman

I had to consider suggestions that certain parts of the area were not up to the normal A.O.N.B. standard and should therefore be excluded. But having regard to the high quality of the area, taken as a whole, I have now decided to confirm the order without modification for the whole Chilterns area.

Mr. Bell

In regard to the matter of delay, does the Minister realise that in this case the end excuses all? His decision will be welcomed by all who value the beauty of the Chiltern Hills. We shall be happy to welcome the Minister to the stewardship of the local hundreds. [Laughter.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I think that we were all waiting for that.