Interviewer
In just a few hours you sit down with President Bush to talk about the rapid change of events in East Europe and the upcoming Summit at Malta between President Bush and Gorbachev. Just what sort of advice are you prepared to offer President Bush?
Prime Minister
I do not think I am offering any advice, I think we are discussing things. I think that from what the George BushPresident has said and from his marvellous speech on the eve of Thanksgiving and from what he has already said and done, we are going to come to very similar conclusions about the way forward.
Interviewer
And those conclusions are? [end p1]
Prime Minister
Those conclusions are, I think, that there is one top priority for the whole of the Western world and that is to help to get democracy into all of the East European countries and throughout the Soviet Union.
I think Mr Gorbachev realised that communism had failed, it had failed to produce the goods, it had failed to produce any standard of dignity and life. He had the courage to say so. He started the political changes. The economic changes are much more difficult to bring about but people saw what he was doing and then they realised that in Eastern Europe if this time they wanted change and in fact brought about change, that change would not be crushed with Mr Gorbachev as it had previously been crushed when Hungary had wanted it, Czechoslovakia had wanted it, East Germany and Poland had wanted it. That is the difference. So the opportunities are enormous.
Interviewer
President Gorbachev is well known for his Summit surprises. What if he goes to Malta and offers to dissolve the Warsaw Pact if NATO in turn would be dissolved?
Prime Minister
I do not think this time Mikhail Gorbachevhe is going to bring about Summit surprises. I think that he realises the enormous magnitude of the task that is ahead. But in any case, even if he did, it would not be a time for NATO to be dissolved. [end p2]
Just let me give you one example which would perhaps illustrate it. Had there been a NATO in Europe between World War I and World War II, I do not think World War II would ever have happened. You need to have strong defence and a strong Alliance and I think that we must always stick to that because that is the greatest deterrent to anyone who might want to attack you from any unexpected direction.
I think that President Gorbachev too will want to feel that he has his security in his Pact. A time of enormous change is a time when you need the background security and the right way to keep it is the talks that are already going on on the reduction of conventional forces and nuclear. He is just as much entitled to want security that way as we are in our way.
So I do not think you will get that kind of sudden unexpected ploy at all.
Interviewer
But as the threat in Eastern Europe appears to diminish and the budget crunch becomes ever tighter in the US, the Defence Secretary here, Richard Cheney, has already recommended dramatic cuts in the defence budget which will mean a reduction of US troop presence in Europe. Is NATO prepared for that? [end p3]
Prime Minister
I understood it that Mr Cheney was not proposing any cuts this coming year but looking at the budget for the following year. And I understand that the United States had budgetary problems and I think that is possibly why he made those proposals. I also think that he and President Bush and the Administration and Congress understand the importance of a sure defence and I think they will never do anything fundamentally to undermine that. And I think they also understand the importance of keeping a substantial presence in Europe and I am quite certain that those massive strategic objectives will continue.
Interviewer
Is the Cold War over as many have said?
Prime Minister
Not over but it is thawing. I think one must not mistake the intention and the goodwill for the deed. It is easier to put political reforms in place than it is to entrench democracy with all the other things that means. Because political reforms will not last long unless you have got economic reforms and also it is not just a voting system, you have got to have a really just rule of law. Those countries have never had a just rule of law. When you read about the harassment, the persecution, the tremendous difficulties they have had, they have never had anywhere to where they can go to complain. They have never had any possibility of redress because they have never had a rule of law. [end p4]
They have got to put that in place as well. And then of course the role of the army always is to support the civil power. So going to democracy is not just an intention, it is going through the hard grind of getting it in place, keeping it in place, and making certain that no small active group can intimidate you out of it.
That is a big task. It will take at least the rest of the next decade and therefore this century. But it is very well worth doing. It is taking up the Iron Curtain which came down over Europe at the end of the post-war period.