Interviewer
Eleven to one on economic and monetary union, eleven to one on the Social Charter. There may be a sense among some people in Britain this weekend that a European train is embarking on a new journey and Britain is not on board?
Prime Minister
Well, you have not actually given the information quite accurately. On the Social Charter there were some people who voted for it saying it was only a solemn declaration and nothing else and that it did not in fact hold them in any way beyond a declaration. I knew full well that was not correct and so was not surprised when the Commission tried to get a piece in the final Communique that the action plan that accompanied it should be implemented. But the others would not have that and that was thrown out. Any directive which the Commission come forward with must come forward in the ordinary way and be considered one by one. So eleven to one is not a really very accurate account of what took place. [end p1]
And on European Monetary Union, that was not in the way the President summed up and of course he did not because other people had doubts about calling an inter-governmental conference. And the way the Fran&cced;ois MitterrandPresident summed up was: “There is a sufficient majority to call an inter-governmental conference”. And it would not be right in my view to say it was a straight eleven to one. I think other people have doubts about calling it but as there is a majority there is no point in going any further with those, it is called.
But I think that there are far more doubts about Delors Stages 2 and 3 and about the necessity of holding an inter-governmental conference, because some of us believe it is not necessary, than your summing up would indicate.
Interviewer
Nevertheless, the conference will go ahead. Do you not believe that there is now some kind of built-in momentum within the Community and that Delors 2 and 3 in some shape or form is now virtually unstoppable?
Prime Minister
No, I think that we are not only quite prepared to work for economic and monetary union but it is part of the fundamental thing to which we agreed when we joined the Community but we do not necessarily agree with their definition. Neither, for example, does Karl Otto Pöhl, the Chairman of the Bundesbank. So we have some very good other people on our side. [end p2]
We do not quite know what will come up. It is not exactly being done at speed is it? The inter-governmental conference is not going to be called until after the German General Election - that tells you a lot and that is December 1990.
Interviewer
What does it tell you?
Prime Minister
It tells me that they do not want it before a German General Election to start.
Interviewer
And why not?
Prime Minister
That is a matter for you to deduce just as much as me, that it would not necessarily be over-popular in Germany.
Secondly, that there is no final date put upon it and President Mitterrand said it might take years. So this momentum you are talking about is pretty slow is it not? [end p3]
Interviewer
What about the suggestion implied in the final communique that these deliberations over EMU are to be accompanied by a possible strengthening of the powers of the European Parliament so that any new institutions created will become fully accountable?
Prime Minister
We are only just implementing the results of the last inter-governmental conference which did give the European Parliament increased powers. I see no need for further increased powers at all but I know that once you have got an inter-governmental conference it is very difficult to confine it rigidly to one particular purpose and all kinds of things may well come up.
Interviewer
Why did you find yourself unable to sign the Social Charter given that it has been so diluted in the run-up to this Council to be virtually meaningless in the eyes of some people?
Prime Minister
But it has not been so diluted. There are all kinds of things that we could not possibly agree to. There are measures which we have got rid of and in getting rid of them we have been able to create three million new jobs since 1983. And what is more, I really think it was a little bit naive to think that it was just a solemn declaration - some people were a little bit naive - but I was not in the least bit surprised the Commission reacted in the [end p4] way they did and tried to push through the recommendation that the action plan be adopted which was pretty cheeky, if I might say so, bearing in mind that the action plan had never been debated by any European Council, that it contained forty-three proposals and seventeen directives. And the rest of us, including me, turned that down flat and rightly so.
Interviewer
On Eastern Europe, can Chancellor Kohl return to West Germany and say he now has the support of his Community partners to begin opening up the way towards German reunification through self-determination?
Prime Minister
Helmut KohlHe can only say that if he takes into account the rest of that paragraph which takes the NATO formulation and places it in the context that that could only take place when you consider as well, alongside, the obligations under NATO, under the Warsaw Pact, that is the two Alliances, we are tied by those obligations, the obligations under the Helsinki Final Act which thirty-four countries signed which is that no borders shall be violated and there shall only be a change in any border by peaceful agreement.
So it is very very much hedged around and that has to be taken into account as well. [end p5]
Interviewer
You spoke less than a week ago at the NATO Summit in Brussels of a period of ten to fifteen years being required to witness the experience of countries emerging from communism towards democracy to see if there could be any other possibilities to the existing borders. So much has changed in the few days since then, do you think that period might have to be condensed?
Prime Minister
I think it does take quite a long time to prove that you can run a democratic system when those countries have had no experience of it. After all, the Soviet Union has never had any experience of democracy except for four months between the downfall of the Tsar and seizing power by Lenin, he seized it from Kerensky who had the only election they have ever had, and he had power for four months and then Lenin seized it. So you cannot judge anything by that.
East Germany, for example, has been either under Nazism or communism ever since 1930 so they have no-one who knows how to run democracy, who knows how to take responsibility, and that is so for most of the other East European countries in the post-war period.
First you have got to have the formation of parties with their fundamental philosophies and with their policies and with their programmes. Then you have got to have effective elections. Then you have got to have governments formed which know how to take responsibility and people who know that in democracy if you take the freedom you must also accept certain responsibilities. [end p6]
And then in order to back up your democracy you have got to have economic freedom. Now you know the difficulty of getting economic reform in the Soviet Union, that is not a quick thing, it is a slow thing and I would think ten to fifteen years is about right.
Interviewer
A final question on Britain's position at the end of this Summit. What do you say to those who will argue that Britain is now marginalised in Europe, that that is a dangerous position for Britain to be in and that it will weaken your own leadership at home given that only recently sixty Conservative MPs withheld their support from you in the leadership election?
Prime Minister
Absolute nonsense! Just let us go through it. On the Single Market, which is a full Common Market, as was said in the Summit which we have just attended, Britain is in the lead about implementing our decisions - in the lead - and also in the lead in many respects in implementing Delors Stage 1 - in the lead.
Secondly, as I have just indicated on the Social Charter, many of them, like us, would not accept the action plan that followed the Social Charter and some of them only accepted it on the basis that it was not a document which called for further action at all. So really far more were with us than against us. [end p7]
And on the third thing, on the EMU, ours is one of the two papers that are going to be considered by the inter-governmental conference. So far from being marginalised we are right in the centre. And if you are ever in there, in some of those conferences you know that Britain is right in the centre, we take a full part in everything.
Interviewer
So why then a Gallup poll today showing that the number of people in Britain who disapprove of your stand in Europe has increased by 10 per cent since June?
Prime Minister
Maybe because you have been quite wrongly saying for a long time that Britain is isolated. You should have been in there, far from being isolated we are listened to and we are very effective.