Prime Minister
(Engagements)
Q1. Mr. Gow
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 2nd November.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
In addition to meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, this evening I hope to have an Audience of Her Majesty The Queen.
Mr. Gow
Will the Prime Minister make time today to reread the broadcast that he made to the nation on 5th April, when he said that there could be no lasting improvement in our living standards unless we stopped going deeper and deeper into debt? How does he reconcile that statement with the reality that during the past seven months the Chancellor of the Exchequer has added to the national debt by more than £6,000 million?
The Prime Minister
It shows that the recovery of a country that has declined over the past 20 years takes longer than six months, and that industrial regeneration, upon which the fortunes of this country are based and which has received the approval of the CBI, the TUC and the Government, is the best way in which we can make Britain fully competitive again. Until that time we shall have to continue slowly in the right direction.
Mr. David Steel
Were any of the ministerial meetings to which the right hon. Gentleman referred related to the progress of the talks at Geneva on the Rhodesian settlement? Will he give the House an assurance that although Mr. Ivor Richard is clearly doing a splendid job as chairman, the right hon. Gentleman will not hesitate to send the Foreign Sec[column 1194]retary if that should prove necessary to maintain the momentum of British initiative towards a settlement?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman says about Mr. Ivor Richard, whose experience is well known and who is proving, as I think he has done at the United Nations, to be an excellent chairman in gaining the confidence of everyone at the talks. As for the attendance of my right hon. Friend, who is now on a visit to Yugoslavia, he has indicated that if necessary he would go to Geneva. However, it seems to us at present that in this period of delicate negotiations Mr. Richard is well able to conduct the talks. I hope that there will be some progress.
Mr. Michael McGuire
Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am very sorry that his programme for today will not allow him to make a visit to my constituency, especially to Skelmersdale? Is he aware of the black despair that has settled over the town following the announcement by Courtaulds that it is shortly to close? If we say in the Labour Party that Socialism is the language of priorities, when my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.] I am making a most serious point. If we say that Socialism is the language of priorities, will my right hon. Friend assure my people in Skelmersdale that they will be given the highest priority by the Labour Government, even if that means rescheduling some of the Government Departments that are to be transferred to places that are not in half as much need as is Skelmersdale?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend and I visited Skelmersdale together only two months ago. I am bound to say that I formed a much better impression both of the attributes of the town and of the labour force than I gained from the Press and by reading. I was under the strong impression then that Courtaulds intended to continue with the factory. I understand that today my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry has been meeting Sir Arthur Knight, the Chairman of Courtaulds, and I think that a statement is expected shortly. Certainly it is important that every step should be taken to restore employment in Skelmersdale—a town that has a considerable future if those who are there can bring themselves, [column 1195]as I am sure they can, to work productively and competitively.
Mrs. Thatcher
May I refer back to James Callaghanthe Prime Minister's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow)? As the right hon. Gentleman said in that original broadcast that we cannot go on borrowing indefinitely, and as he will not reduce Government expenditure, is he expecting to increase taxation in order to get the IMF loan?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Lady really must wait upon the discussions that are taking place at this moment—[Interruption.]—but I can assure her that if there are any announcements to be made they will be made in this House in due course, and at the time that the Government choose and not as a result of shouting from hon. Members on the Opposition Benches.
Mrs. Thatcher
Does the Prime Minister recollect that in his broadcast on “Panorama” he gave two broad hints which he refused to give the House? He said that there was scope for increased taxation and that there was a margin for increased taxation. Do I understand that he has now ruled out increased taxation?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Lady can draw any deduction she likes. In that broadcast on “Panorama” I was giving to a semi-philosophical question a wholly philosophical reply—that is to say, I was comparing the general levels of taxation in response to the question that had been asked. The right hon. Lady should not draw any more deductions from it than the weight of the answer will bear.
Mr. Crawford
Will the Prime Minister take time off his official engagements today and reflect on the very serious unemployment and investment situation in Scotland? Does he agree that the only way in which unemployment and inflation can be brought down and investment increased in Scotland is by the establishment of a strong Scots pound and the lower rates of interest that will follow from the marriage between self-government and Scotland's inherently stable balance of payments situation?
The Prime Minister
I have read the concoction that is apparently intended to prescribe financial and economic policy [column 1196]for Scotland. If I were an elector there, I would not be very attracted by it.
Education
Q2. Mr. Wyn Roberts
asked the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech on education, delivered at Ruskin College, Oxford, on Monday 18th October.
Q3. Mr. Peter Morrison
asked the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech on education in Oxford on 18th October.
Q10. Mr. Tebbit
asked the Prime Minister whether he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech on education on 18th October at Oxford.
The Prime Minister
I did so the same day.
Mr. Roberts
Has the Prime Minister considered that the general reluctance of young people to enter industry as opposed to the public service may be due to the comparative uncertainty of employment in industry and of the comparatively poor rewards that there appear to be for middle management?
The Prime Minister
I think that there is something in the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question. When there are high levels of unemployment, certainty and security in employment are a very great attraction, and that must have an impact. But I think that it goes deeper than that. I doubt whether most of the 550,000 youngsters who left school in June and July—all of whom, I am glad to say, are now off the register, except for 78,000—were really concerned at that stage about rewards to middle management. What we need is a closer relationship between schools and industry at all levels, and I hope that that will be encouraged.
Mr. Corbett
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his excellent speech on education. Has he considered the possibility of an inquiry into the supply, training, and qualifications of people in the professional engineering occupations, so that, in order to achieve the reinvigoration of British industry, we have this professional interest?
[column 1197]The Prime Minister
All these matters must come under review. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has indicated that we are going to focus attention on this whole range of issues, and I hope that she will be able to produce either a Green Paper or something in another form which will enable us to bring these matters into full discussion so that conclusions can be reached on them. I am in no doubt, as a result of the correspondence that has reached me since I directed attention to this matter—although I know that others have been doing it for some time—that there is genuine concern in industry and a strong desire on the part of the schools to try to meet the need. We must bring them both together.
Mr. Morrison
In the Prime Minister's welcome but belated concern about standards in education, will he now take the obvious step of dropping the Education Bill at once?
The Prime Minister
It is that approach to education which distinguishes the two sides, and shows that the hon. Gentleman is concerned only with making party points and with trying to attack a particular system of education. What my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are concerned about is the quality of the education in the schools today.
Mr. William Hamilton
Since my right hon. Friend wants a full public debate on education, will he take it upon himself to instruct the Department of Education and Science that when a Select Committee of this House seeks access to documents pertaining to the deciding of priorities within the Department those documents must be made available to the Committee, and not refused?
The Prime Minister
I will inquire into that. I am not aware of the circumstance to which my hon. Friend is drawing my attention. I am quite certain that what has been said and the attention which has been focused on this matter represent the views of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of parents, and that it is something to which the whole House must turn its attention.
[column 1198]Mr. Tebbit
Will the Prime Minister accept our congratulations on the fact that he is at last beginning to understand the concern that has been expressed from the Opposition side of the House about these matters for so long? Will he, as Prime Minister, consider intervening in what would appear to be an interdepartmental wrangle and taking away from the Department of Education and Science the responsibility for the Careers Advisory Service? Will he put it into the hands of people who have had genuine contact with industry, instead of leaving it in the hands of the somewhat remote people who run it at present?
The Prime Minister
I have been impressed by the fact that the quality of the careers officers in a number of schools does vary. In some schools it is much better than in others. Whether a change in structure would effect an improvement, however, I am not sure, but I shall be happy to discuss the matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and to write to the hon. Gentleman in due course.
Mr. Molloy
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, notwithstanding the economic difficulties afflicting most of Western society, his speech on education was warmly welcomed by ordinary people? Will he make another speech and make it clear that he will in no way undertake to submit to the clamour of the Conservative Party to inflict savage cuts on education, which would be the equivalent of eating the seed corn?
The Prime Minister
I am glad to say that I have now been invited to make a speech at Woodberry Down School on 9th November, where I have no doubt that I shall have something further to say about this matter. This is an area in which I naturally want to see the high level of public expenditure that is devoted to education—about £6 billion a year—used in proper priority, if necessary reordering the existing priorities, so that we can get real value for money.
Mr. St. John-Stevas
Whilst welcoming the Prime Minister's support of our ideas on standards in education, and understanding the difficulties that there may be in dropping the Education Bill, may I ask whether, as an earnest of his sincerity, he can now give an undertaking [column 1199]that no local education authority will be forced into going comprehensive without being given adequate financial resources to make a good job of it and avoid botched-up schemes?
The Prime Minister
The Opposition's pathological dislike of comprehensive schools is exceeded only by the reaction of Pavlov's dogs when the bell rings. If the hon. Gentleman would concern himself more with the content and less with the structure of education, we might do very much better.