Interviewer
Prime Minister, some of those ideas that Mr Gorbachev was putting out today seemed almost extraordinary—the idea of dissolving NATO and the Warsaw Pact and he wants this new structure, though you do not quite see it that way—but his whole tone, not even I gather worrying with you in the talks about the problem now of Germany perhaps going into NATO. What do you make of it all?
Prime Minister
First, I think they want some extra reassurance that a united Germany in NATO will not be to their disadvantage and both the United States and ourselves and some of the NATO countries will seek to find that and to give them that reassurance because we do not think it is to their disadvantage at all that Germany goes in NATO.
And then Mr Gorbachev was going on, and perhaps just thinking aloud that there might come a time when we have a new Europe-wide security organisation. At the moment I cannot foresee that time but I do see that we can go ahead, as we have been doing, a long way with NATO and the Warsaw Pact under the framework of the Helsinki Accords which is thirty-five nations. [end p1]
And that is my framework and it is there and I would far rather work forward with an organisation which exists and which we know about and see where that leads us, it might eventually evolve into something else.
Interviewer
He seemed so very keen on this idea of at least a joint Warsaw Pact/NATO declaration, is that something which you look upon with favour?
Prime Minister
A kind of declaration I think is what they are seeking as some kind of reassurance for their own security.
Interviewer
It is an astonishing change though is it not? Here was the situation where there were two alliances armed to the teeth and hardly had a relaxed conversation and yet today here you were agreeing about market forces, very relaxed in each other's company—quite an astonishing change?
Prime Minister
A terrific change in every way. But of course it was Mikhail Gorbachevhe who dropped the old communist socialist idea that their creed would extend the world over, and he dropped that completely because he realised it had crumbled at home. And once he dropped that international creed, then we got all sorts of movement forward in the international sphere. And once he is backing up going towards [end p2] greater freedom with a market economy and the ideas of Milton Friedman, then once again the ideas and the ideals are coming closer together.
Interviewer
It was absolutely astonishing to hear him talking about Milton Friedman—the market economist.
Prime Minister
Yes, wasn't it? But it is because it works and because it brings prosperity, also because it gives people liberty. And he has been talking about private property, you know, for a long time. But I think many people understand that in countries where there are no private property rights there are usually no human rights. And so it is all going in the right direction.
He has a bigger problem, I think, than any country has ever faced on the economy in the world before. They have always been used in this country to being told what to do and not doing anything unless they are told to do it because they were punished if they did the wrong thing. Now to get a turn-around from that, to say: “Look, act on your own initiative, take your own responsibility.” they do not quite know how, they are a little bit fearful. Khrushchev tried a little bit of it and of course it went into reverse.
So there is a massive amount of discussion and training to do to let them know not only what they want to do but to teach them how to do it and how to take responsibility. [end p3]
Interviewer
Precisely, with all those problems that he has got over the reforms and with the challenge now from Mr Yeltsin and the news we have had today about the decision taken in the Russian Parliament, is there a danger that we might get too enthusiastic, that we might trust him too much, that we might in a sense back the wrong horse?
Prime Minister
No. I think that you should expect that there will be a massive amount of problems. First, in a country that was totally dominated from the centre, that is to say each of the constituent republics want a new school, a new road, how to spend the money—the decision had to come back to Moscow. It is unbelievable to us that in a country that size there were no powers devolved to some of the separate republics, not given a budget and certain duties and left to spend it in that way, in fulfilment of their duties. And they realised that it just could not work, there just is not an organisation that can take all those decisions and judgments right in the centre of a country this size.
So first Mikhail Gorbachevhe has got to get sorted out the powers between the centre and the Republics. That is not impossible, the United States has the powers sorted out between the centre and the states; Canada has them almost sorted out; so has Australia; so has India. But it is a new constitutional change of sorting out the central law and the law of the Republics, that is a very big thing. And then he has got the great political change towards much greater freedom of speech and democracy, and then that has to be all backed up with a freer economy. [end p4]
Now those, or any one of those would be enormous changes. To do all three together is really unprecedented and so it is not surprising there are difficulties. I think in politics you have to determine that you will not let the difficulties dominate you but you will keep your eye on the opportunities and go straight ahead on that basis.
Interviewer
But I wonder with the problems of the reforms here at home and all these new ideas that he is putting into the international spheres, as we mentioned earlier, whether there is not a danger that it might come to grief, that he might find things not going well, that some of these ideas that he wants about dissolving Warsaw Pact and NATO might go wrong and he might turn and we might be storing up difficulties for ourselves?
Prime Minister
Yes, well some things might go wrong but I do not think they will all go wrong. And if they might go wrong then I think that what Mikhail Gorbachevhe deserves from us is support in this tremendous thing that he is doing, which is the most exciting thing in this half century. And the century started with the advent of socialist communism; I think the century will end with the death of it and the replacement of it by something much older and much more in keeping with liberty—with a free society under a rule of law and a free economy.
If you have that from the West American coast on the Pacific, right across the Atlantic, right across the Soviet Union, through Eastern Europe, right to the Pacific because Russia touches the [end p5] Pacific, think what a fantastic achievement it will be, an air of peace and democracy and freedom right across there. It is most exciting. It is not a thing you want to say: “But will not this, that and the other go wrong?” it is a thing which you want to say: “Well, some things will go wrong but let us see that we get through and win through” and that is the approach he is taking.