‘A lot more to life than slickness’

Concluding our pre-election interviews with party leaders, Margaret Thatcher, talking yesterday to Robin Oakley, says that mere presentation cannot conceal the policies that Labour dare not reveal

Robin Oakley, The Times

What are the biggest tasks outstanding if you are re-elected?

MT

First, one has to keep the growth going as far as one can. That depends not only on us but on the state of the world economy. That's why it was so vital to go to Venice. There are countries with enormous surpluses, and unless they change their ways it will mean the world economy slows down.

Once you've got that, and strong defence, we have to go on to the next stage in our manifesto, which is to bring a wider choice to people in rented housing and, above all, to tackle education. While in some parts of the country it is splendid, in some authorities parents are very, very concerned about some of the strange things their-children are taught which most of us say they shouldn't be taught at all. They are very distressed that they are not being taught the proper things that education is all about—their basic language, their basic numeracy, their basic science, knowing something about their country and its history, geography and something about the great treasures of the world.

That is specifically directed to people in the inner cities who somehow are trapped, paying heavily in rates and taxes for education their children are not receiving.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Do you regret that your campaign has become negative, concentrating on “Don't let Labour ruin it” rather than promoting your ideas?

MT

We set out with a very, very positive approach. But we have been under virulent attack, sometimes quite false, about our record, and therefore we had to turn around and defend our record and to counter-attack. Sometimes the best defence is counter-attack by showing up what your opponents do.

Politics is about alternatives. As part of putting your own message across you simply must show up what is the alternative and how it would really be fundamentally at odds with everything which has been enterprising and built this country as a reliableally.

Robin Oakley, The Times

There has been much praise for Labour's campaign. What have you thought of it?

MT

I've been asked all the time: “But Mrs Thatcher, your campaign hasn't been as slick as Labour's.” I think there is a lot more to life than slickness. I don't think it is a good reputation for a Prime Minister or Government to have, being slick. I'd far rather be sound, honest and frank where the money comes from, honest and frank about how jobs are created. It depends on a combined effort from Government and people. Slickness is not for Government. Presentation cannot conceal in our opponents the policies which they dare not reveal.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Why do you believe it is so important to “destroy” socialism?

MT

Because socialism is about more and more control by the Government over the lives of the people. It is about taking away more and more of the fruits of the efforts of the people, their wages and incomes, so that they can't provide for themselves and their families but the Government has to provide everything.

Socialism is about collective provision and the destruction of the role, importance, and dignity of the individual and his fundamental human right to do better for his children by his own efforts and to help his neighbour by his own efforts. This coercion and collectivism is totally at odds with all that has made Britain great.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Given your views on socialism, would you like the Alliance to emerge as the major opposition, even if that made life harder for the Conservatives?

MT

The Alliance is not a consistent, homogenous party. When the SDP came out of the Labour Party they did not join the Liberal Party, they set up a separate party. There are enormous divisions of view within the SDP and fundamental divisions within the Liberal Party. They are not doing so well because it seems to people that they haven't got the momentum, the drive, the energy to go forward because they don't know what to do. When they've tried to thrash it out they cannot come to a clear decision. I don't think that is the way for the Government of a country like ours to be conducted.

We have gained tremendously by having a strong, decisive Government. We've had to be strong. We had to lead on stationing cruise missiles. It wasn't Germany that did. We had to do it first.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Does it worry you when you are accused of being uncaring or when by-election voters talk of “that bloody woman” ?

MT

Of course it does. I sometimes feel it would be better if I talked more and did less—but of course it wouldn't. We do a lot more and talk a lot less and that's the way I was taught from childhood. Beware of people who talk big, it's what you do that counts.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Do you still enjoy fighting elections?

MT

In retrospect, provided one wins and wins well, one will have enjoyed it. It's like asking me, do I enjoy Question Time [end p1] at the House of Commons? In retrospect I say I love it. It's like asking me, do I enjoy television broadcasting? In retrospect, sometimes yes, but in prospect I'm … one doesn't have nerves of steel, you know, one is frightened to death that you won't do as well for your cause as you should.

Frightened isn't quite the right word to use. You are very anxious to do the best for everything you believe in and worried that you might not do justice by your cause.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Many have said it was a mistake for you to talk of going “on and on and on” with the implication you will lead your party into the next election too. Do you still hope to do that?

MT

I take one election at a time. The question I was tackled with then—I could see the way it was going—was to try to suggest that if I won I would resign very quickly and that people would not know who they were voting for. I felt bound to counter that by saying no, it is my wish to go' on up to another election. “Ah, then, so you want a fourth term?” You are caught either way.

I believe it happens to be an enormous strength to the leader of the Conservative Party that you can be challenged each and every year by the party.

Robin Oakley, The Times

In this election, law and order has not been the automatic plus for the Government it used to be. Are you happy with your record in this field?

MT

I think it is an underlying plus because people know what we've done for extra police, with reasonable pay and boosting morale. They know we support the police and we are not the party that has attacked the police. I think they realize that but for that, things would have been infinitely worse.

We are just as worried as they are about conditions in some inner cities. There is so much we should have done differently about building those great big blocks of flats with the walkways and passages where you can't see what's going on and which don't make it easy for the police to police effectively. I think overall you will find that law and order is a plus for us.

Robin Oakley, The Times

There seems particular concern about lenient sentences. Will you try to do something about that if re-elected?

MT

It will be the third time I've come at it. We had it in a bill, I think in 1985, because I was determined to try to get an appeal to the Court of Appeal on the question of the lenient sentence so that they could have given a decision which would not have been retrospective but would have affected future cases. To my great disappointment that did not get through the House of Lords.

We put it in the Criminal Justice Bill but we weren't able to get the whole of that through and the Labour Party would not allow that clause to go through. We shall bring it back. I hope this time that or something like it will get through because I am very concerned that the way in which the law works has got to command the confidence of the people.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Is there a single issue on which the election has turned?

MT

Not a single issue. I think one of the two major issues is defence, because people are proud of our country and proud of its record in defence. They know we have stood alone, they know we stand for freedom, they know how much there is to lose. Then there is the general way the economy has been run. In spite of unemployment, I think people understand the reasons for that. They understand that jobs are created by business and that governments can only help. They know the economy is doing extremely well.

You've only got to look at the construction around the country. You've only to look at the shops that are booming. The biggest shopping centres are being built in the North. They know, although they won't always admit it, that there have been more resources put into the health service and into pensions and social security than ever before. They do know that someone has to make the money before it can be distributed.

They are afraid of militancy. They know it is something that is not in tune with this country and they do know this Labour Party is different from any other we've ever had and, I think, somewhat suspect that the packaging is to conceal that very thing.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Will you be changing government departments? Will we get a new Department of Enterprise or Ministry of Science?

MT

Not at the moment. We'll have another look coming up to mid-term, when we've got some more things privatized. Then we'll see what would be the best division between departments. There is no point putting them together in a different way just for the sake of change.

Robin Oakley, The Times

You said once that you would have no time for internal arguments. Are you an autocrat with your Cabinet?

MT

We have the most vigorous arguments, that's the way we arrive at our decisions. Very vigorous arguments. I'm usually right in the middle of them.

Robin Oakley, The Times

Did you ever envisage unemployment reaching the level it has? Under another Thatcher Government can we expect a very considerable fall in the jobless totals?

MT

You are asking me to prophesy. We have never done that. We believe the unemployment figures will continue to fall in the coming months. We hope the world economy will expand—which would be a tremendous help, because then we could get a good share of it. We, shall continue the policies which are now creating extra jobs and have unemployment falling. We have a bigger proportion of our people in work than any other European country, with the exception of Denmark.

What mistakes, if any, can you recall making in Government?

I can never remember just at the time when you tackle me about this, and afterwards I can always remember some. There are always things one would do differently or better. Just the day before an election, you try not to say what you could have done better. You say what you have done well.

Do you think that Francis Pym's remark before the 1983 election that landslide majorities were not good for governments has been borne out by events, or do you want another?

It has enabled us to be very clear and decisive and to give a lead on many things which we could not otherwise have done. I hope and believe we shall win. I hope we win with a very good majority to hold international confidence in the future economy of our country and in Britain's reputation as a reliable ally and a trusted friend.