PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. Fallon
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 17 December.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty The Queen.
Mr. Fallon
Does my right hon. Friend accept that there is widespread concern on the Conservative Benches about the moral implications of unprosecuted fraud, hidden evidence, and ill-made money, and that we welcome the rigorous steps proposed by her right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry at the weekend to clean up those parts of the City which the law does not appear to reach?
The Prime Minister
I agree with the views expressed by my hon. Friend. No one is more anxious than the Government to ensure that those who are guilty of fraud are brought to justice. Lord HailshamThe Lord Chancellor and Douglas Hurdthe Home Secretary have just received Lord Roskill 's report. It contains about 112 recommendations. We shall be considering it carefully. It is a weighty document, and we hope to be able to publish it next month.
Q2. Ms. Clare Short
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 17 December.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Ms. Short
Will the Prime Minister admit that she and her Ministers have been seriously misleading the House and the country over the past three months in suggesting that the unemployment rate has been falling and that that development shows some improvement in the real economy when, in fact, the fall is caused by an increase in places on the Government community programme for the long-term unemployed? That programme has increased by just over 24,000 places. The seasonal drop in unemployment is only just under 16,000, so that in the real economy unemployment is still rising. When will the Government start to do something about real jobs in the real economy instead of just fiddling the figures?
The Prime Minister
I thought that the Opposition were in favour of a community programme and of training young people. I shall have to revise my views, because clearly they are not. Yes, there are 230,000 places on the community programme to help the long-term unemployed back into work. Yes, there are 30,000 unfilled places. Yes, we shall continue with the programme because we wish to continue to help the long-term unemployed.
Mr. Hannam
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the Labour party's policy to renationalise newly privatised industries, with compensation being given only on the basis of the original investment price? Does she agree that that is a disastrous threat to the millions of new shareholders?
The Prime Minister
Wider share ownership is a great principle of the Conservative party. The Labour party will have nothing to do with it.
[column 154]Mr. Kinnock
In 1984 the Prime Minister promised
“to protect the poor and those most in need.”
What does she now say to the pensioner couple in their seventies, who will lose £3 a week? What does she now say to the middle-aged couple on a take-home wage of £75 a week, who are to lose £5 a week? What does she say to a 24-year-old single worker taking home £55 a week, who is to lose £12? How does she excuse the malice and immorality of that act of robbery against the people who are already poor?
The Prime Minister
What the right hon. Gentleman wants to do is to accept all the increases that my right hon. Friend Norman Fowlerthe Secretary of State for Social Services announced yesterday, and to forget that there might have to be some losers—[Interruption.] There might have to be some losers—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. The Prime Minister.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman wants to forget that there might have to be some losers. However, if he looks at the total expenditure, which is set out in the autumn statement, he will see that this year the total planned expenditure on social security is £40 billion, but by the year 1988–89 it is planned to be £46 billion. That is an increase of £6 billion, which will have to be found out of taxation and contributions by ordinary people.
Mr. Kinnock
Is it not about time that the Prime Minister honestly admitted to the country that more money is spent on benefits for the poor because her policies have made many more people poor? Is it not time for her to say to those whom she glibly dismisses as “some losers” that she could not live on £75 a week and could not tolerate a further loss of £5 a week? How can she defend taking money from people who are already desperately poor, when she knows that her objective is to give more to those who are already very rich?
The Prime Minister
As my right hon. Friend Norman Fowlerthe Secretary of State said yesterday, the point of the proposals is to direct resources to the areas of greatest need. The new family credit will go to 200,000 more families with children than now have the family income supplement. The right hon. Gentleman wants to take the benefits and all the increases, and accept none of the consequences of redistribution. My right hon. Friend wants improved incentives to work, and he wants to ensure that commitments entered into can be afforded. With that in mind, he has put forward his proposals, and they will require an increase in expenditure over planned expenditure this year and expenditure in 1988 of some £6 billion, which will have to be found by the taxpayer. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will think that that is reasonable. If not, how much more would his plan cost?
Mr. Kinnock
Will the Prime Minister now tell us when it is right to increase the money given to the near destitute in this country? What on earth is the moral or economic justification for finding that money by stealing from the very poor?
The Prime Minister
Once again, the right hon. Gentleman has gone over the top—[Interruption.] I take it that he does not want any of the increases that are to go to families, that he does not want improved incentives to [column 155]work and does not want to ensure that commitments entered into can be afforded. He wants to promise the earth and not say how it is to be paid for.
Mr. Hill
Does my right hon. Friend agree that although elderly people are interested in pensions and housing benefit, they are mainly concerned about the protection of their environment, law and order on their council estates, and the fear that they cannot safely open their doors in the evening? Will my right hon. Friend continue to reinforce the police and help the chief constables in the regions to have discussions with the communities on neighbourhood watch schemes?
The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend that elderly folk, along with others, are very much concerned with law and order, especially on the council estates. I think he will agree that under this Government old-age pensions have gone up by more than the cost of living, and that under this Government old-age pensioners have had their Christmas bonus every year, which was not the case under the Labour Government.
Q3. Mr. Terry Lewis
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 17 December.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Lewis
In the dispute between the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and the Secretary of State for Defence, whose side is the right hon. Lady on?
The Prime Minister
I am on the side of a company that is hoping to keep business going for its considerable work force, that has responsibilities to its shareholders and moral responsibilities to its work force, that must deal with its obligations to its bankers and that also has to consider the legal obligations of auditors. In the very sensitive situation that we now have, I suggest that it is left to the company to decide its future.
Dr. Hampson
Will my right hon. Friend go further and take this opportunity to correct the impression that emerged from yesterday's statement on Westland that the Government are backing the Sikorsky deal and confirm that for a long time the Government have sought greater collaboration among European armament manufacturers, which is particularly long overdue with helicopters?
The Prime Minister
Westland is a public limited company. It must take its own decisions. The Government saw that it had a choice. The board has legal obligations to the shareholders, it has moral obligations to the work force, the banks have their obligations and the auditors have their legal obligations. The people on the board are the only ones in a position to know all the facts. They must make their assessment and present that to the company.
Mr. Steel
Reverting to the first question to the Prime Minister this afternoon, since the deputy chairman of the Conservative party is reported to be acting as a character reference for the return of Mr. Postgate to Lloyd's, will she remind him and everybody else that the Government, like her predecessor's, stand against the unacceptable face of capitalism?
The Prime Minister
I have said that the Government have probably done more than any other to try to tackle fraud wherever it occurs. That will continue to be our [column 156]policy. As I said, Lord Roskill 's report has reached the Government. We are publishing today the White Paper on banking supervision, and the Financial Services Bill will be introduced later this week. We have done, and shall continue to do, everything possible. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman does the City a great disservice by forgetting the number of jobs and the amount of income that it provides for Britain. He is trying to suggest that because some things may be wrong somewhere, that applies to the whole City. That is not correct.
Mr. Robert Atkins
While we are on the subject of aerospace, has my right hon. Friend noticed today that the figures for the British aerospace industry are £1 billion up on this time last year, representing a 23 per cent. increase, and of that some 60 per cent. are exports to the world? Does not she think that that is the jewel in the crown of British manufacturing industry?
The Prime Minister
I congratulate the aerospace industry on its excellent export record and would like to point out that other parts of manufacturing industry have done very well. Indeed, exports by manufacturing industry were a record last year.
Q4. Mr. Sean Hughes
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 17 December.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Hughes
Does the fact that the under-25 age group appears to be another group targeted for cuts in welfare benefits mean that the Prime Minister now accepts the view of the vice-chairman of the Tory party that too many young people will not get off their backsides and find work?
The Prime Minister
As I said earlier, no one has done more for youth training than have this Government. The one millionth youth trainee has now entered the scheme. [Interruption.] I am sorry that the Labour party treats these matters with such levity.
Q5. Mr. Freeman
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 17 December.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Freeman
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the excellent reception on the Conservative Benches of yesterday's White Paper, especially the proposal for a broader spread of personal pensions? Will she continue to preach the principles of thrift and the broader spread of financial assets?
The Prime Minister
I am glad that my hon. Friend welcomes the White Paper. It is meant, among other things, to give wider choice to those who wish to save through a personal pension scheme and build up a capital fund on their own account. It is also directed to help more effectively those in greatest need, such as young families, through the new family credit scheme, and to give improved incentives to work.
It means that the commitment that we enter into can be afforded. That is a matter to which the Opposition have given no attention since the last election. Indeed, since then they have already promised an additional £10 billion without specifying from where that will come.
[column 157]Mr. Adley
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will have noticed that, during Question Time, once again the tactics of the Labour party were to shout down my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at every opportunity— [column 158][Interruption.]—as they are trying to do to me now. Will you please use your influence to protect this House from the barbaric tactics of the Opposition?
Mr. Speaker
Order. The noise during Question Time today was rather greater than usual, so I agree with the hon. Gentleman on that point.