Sue Macgregor
Hallo! Today, our special guest is the Prime Minister, the Rt. Hon. Margaret Thatcher, who is with us now. And looking up Mrs. Thatcher's entry in “Who's Who” last night, I was interested to note that it was only eleven lines long—remarkably short, perhaps, for someone whose position and personality have so dominated British and international politics in the past few years. It reminds us—that entry—that she will be sixty years old in October; she has been an MP for over twenty-five years now; leader of her Party for just ten; and has been Prime Minister since 1979.
Prime Minister, this has been a crisis week for the pound, “A crucial week” I think it was called on the News At One. The Government has had to intervene, which is something your Government has been reluctant to do in the past, to halt the slide in the pound, and the Minimum Lending Rate has gone right up since last week. What was it that made you intervene?
Prime Minister
Because one has to have regard to the exchange rate. No Prime Minister likes to sit and watch your own currency falling against the dollar, even though it is falling in concert [end p1] with other currencies. We were falling slightly faster. You are reluctant to put up interest rates, because intervention consists of two things: either putting up interest rates or using your slender reserves to try to stop speculators. The reserves are small compared with the amounts of money moving round the world, so you are really driven to interest rate. You are very reluctant to use it, but there comes a time when you must, and then you have to do it. You do not like to do it more than is absolutely necessary, so you see if 1%; was enough. It was not, and we had to move decisively, and it seems to have been effective.
Sue Macgregor
Well some people say, indeed, it was too little and too late and, in fact, the pound really has not improved very much. It is stuck at $1.12.
Prime Minister
Well, at least it has not gone down! But when you take action, you are bound to have criticism—either do not take it, or it is too little, too late. I mean, the criticisms are usually the same, whatever action you take. But they would have been critical—very critical—had we done nothing, and quite rightly so! [end p2]
Sue Macgregor
Was it good or bad for the pound to slide? In some respects, it was good for exports, I suppose?
Prime Minister
In my view, it is down too far, and I did not like it sliding any further. I do not like it being down at this rate. I think you will find that there is something very strange that the dollar is at a uniquely high position against all of the Western currencies, and even currencies that you and I think of as tremendously strong—the Swiss Franc, the Deutschmark, have been at record lows, and it is a kind of new phenomenon we have not encountered before, but we will have to learn how to deal with it. But one day it will break. You cannot go on with the dollar going up and up against other currencies, and I think most of us would like to feel that whatever happens it will happen smoothly, because uncertainty and suddenness are always very difficult for anyone in business.
Sue Macgregor
Many commentators have said that the Government's image has been dented by seeming to vacillate. We were hearing two views on Sunday about what you plan to do with the pound—whether or not you planned to intervene. [end p3]
Prime Minister
Yes, I heard BBC Sunday morning and I looked at the papers on Sunday morning and there were two distinctly opposite views—one that we were not intervening and we did not care, and the other that we were going to do a U-turn. Now what I simply cannot stand …
Sue Macgregor
Is it not a U-turn?
Prime Minister
No, it is not a U-turn. Can I just gently say that we had to do a similar thing in July. It went up by 2¾%; then. It did not stay up because we took action and that steadied the pound and we held inflation and so it gradually came down. So it is not quite as sudden as some people think and I am afraid you do have to use the interest rate weapon now and then if you are interested in keeping inflation down, and as far as I am concerned, 5%; increase in prices every year is too high … got to get it down further.
Sue Macgregor
Could it not be said, though, Prime Minister, that 2½%; rise in the MLR is actually going to put inflation up because it might tempt the building societies to put up the mortgage rate later this week? [end p4]
Prime Minister
Yes, indeed, and that did happen indeed after July, but I can remember that debate we had in the House in July and very shortly afterwards we went into Recess. That last week in July, people were predicting that the inflation rate—then 5%;—would go up to 7½%;, because of what we had to do on interest rates. They were not right. It was still 5%; in December, and I think that that indicated a certain strength in the British economy. And again, news today: the earnings—people who are in work have good earnings; they are up above what they were a year ago. Production is going up. We are holding inflation. Investment is at an all-time record, and therefore, with all that it is something of a mystery as to why Sterling was falling.
Sue Macgregor
People that are in work are undoubtedly doing better, but there are well over 3 million people that are out of work, Prime Minister.
Prime Minister
That gives me great cause for concern, particularly, I think—if I might select within that figure—two groups of people. I think it very bad for young people to leave school and to go on to Supplementary Benefit. They cannot get Unemployment Benefit because they have not contributed and they go on to Supplementary Benefit. That is very very bad indeed. It gives them the wrong idea about life and starts them off on the wrong foot and their parents do not like it and [end p5] I do not like it. So we tried to work towards a Youth Training Scheme, so if they do not get a job and they do not wish to stay on in education, they go straight into training.
Sue Macgregor
A lot of young people have rejected that, haven't they?
Prime Minister
Oh well, an awful lot of people, young people, are doing very very well in it. What I am working towards—and I believe parents are with me—is that no-one should have the option of being unemployed before they are eighteen. Either you stay in the education system; if you do not like school, you take some kind of further education; or you go to a job, as many many young people do—a lot of young people—or you take training. But really, doing nothing and being unemployed should not be an option, and I think that we are very nearly ready to be able to do that.
And the other group, of course, is the long-term unemployed. We have a Community Enterprise Programme. We say to people: “Look! Aren't there certain things you would like done?” It may be churches, it may be charities. We will employ people on a Community Enterprise Programme who otherwise would have been unemployed for a long time. [end p6]
Sue Macgregor
But what real hope, Prime Minister, can you offer the long-term unemployed? Undoubtedly, you are worried about them. Many of your colleagues in the House feel that rather than offer tax cuts at the next Budget, it would be much better to put that money into creating jobs, perhaps even mending the infrastructure of this country. Mr. Heath is one of the people who feels that that should be so.
Prime Minister
Look! You put an awful lot into one question. You do not get to be a thriving, enterprising, vigorous, enthusiastic country by saying to people: “You make money and we will tax you!” You do not help people to work harder by saying: “You earn extra, we will take it away in tax!” You will never never get new business, new jobs, if you take that attitude, and the successful countries do not take that attitude. They say: “We want people who will build new businesses, be it small or big.” We have got to encourage them with incentives and industry—it consists of human beings—they have got to have incentives. You do not in fact ever get a thriving country doing that, and unless you get new businesses starting all you will do is shuffle round the shekels, but that will not do. We have to grow, and we are growing.
Sue Macgregor
Are you going to get new businesses starting with interest rates up and perhaps, some people predict, going up even more? [end p7]
Prime Minister
New businesses are starting faster than other businesses are going out of action. The rate of births exceeds the rate of deaths. We have one problem, which I think many parents will understand, that because of the birth-rate several years ago we have rather more school-leavers over a period of eight years than we have people retiring. So now we have a million more people in the population of working age than we had six years ago, so we have to create more jobs even to stand still. But you get more jobs—and new jobs—by encouraging those who can build up business and employ others. That is happening, but many of the people whom they are taking on are not people off the unemployment register. Many of them are married women coming back into work and very good, marvellous workers they make too.
Sue Macgregor
But people, Prime Minister, seeing the interest rates going up this week, will wonder how they are going to afford to borrow the money to start new businesses. I wonder if I may quote Mr. Heath at you. You heard him in the Unemployment Debate of course yesterday in the House, but he is one of the critics in your own Party who are very worried about how things are going. He said those overseas look at us now as being a country whose economy has been greatly [end p8] damaged by a miners' strike and with a government who, for reasons that those overseas do not understand, appear to be unable to do anything about it. This is a major factor in the way those dealing in foreign exchange look at Britain.
Prime Minister
You remember the 1974 election was of course in the middle of a miners' strike. After ten months now, we have the lights still on and the power still going and industry is not held up for lack of power in any way, and there are 73,000 members of the National Union of Mineworkers at work and we are getting people returning to work. So it is not that nothing is happening. After ten months, all the power is on. Industry is not suffering from lack of power. More miners are going back to work. If I might say so, I think the result of this strike will be that we shall get leadership amongst people who believe in what I call real moderate honest trade unionism, but trade unionism is not about politics, not about trying to topple democracy. It is about forming groups to try and do better for industries and do better for those people who work in it. Again, if I might respectfully say so, that will be a very great achievement. Not a party political achievement, although we have been firm enough to say that we simply cannot be held to ransom by threats or violence or intimidation, but will be marvellous news for Britain when that miners' strike is over. [end p9]
Sue Macgregor
Can you see that end coming?
Prime Minister
I think with the number of people going back to work, the end is a lot nearer than we thought two or three months ago.
Sue Macgregor
You are thought of—and I think you have even admitted that you are yourself, Mrs. Thatcher—you are thought of as being very much a conviction politician. Somebody with strong convictions, strong beliefs. Does that mean that you never change your mind about anything?
Prime Minister
If you have a conviction, then I think you do not change your mind about the conviction. How that conviction is applied tactically, then there is a certain amount of room for manoeuvre, so your strategy remains the same, your tactics may vary.
Yes, convictions are such that you hold them. I believe that people work jolly hard, they should have a better income than those who do not work hard. I believe that people are responsible for their own future. I believe that this Britain was the sort of Britain that won through the last War, because we are that sort of people, because we like to be independent of government and not dependent on government. [end p10]
Sue Macgregor
Do you respect people who hold equally strong convictions but are diametrically opposed to you?
Prime Minister
I will always respect people who hold equally strong convictions and I will argue with them anywhere at any time and love it. What I do not like is when instead of arguing, they just demonstrate and shout and have unruly assemblies. That is not putting your case to me. That is signifying that you have no case, and when you resort to violence and intimidation that is signifying that you have no case at all.
Sue Macgregor
I think it is fascinating, and I am sure you have been reminded of this many times, that not many years ago you said on “Blue Peter”—a programme for children—
Prime Minister
Oh, I love “Blue Peter”. I remember it!
Sue Macgregor
You know what I am going to say to you?
Prime Minister
No, I do not! [end p11]
Sue Macgregor
Well, you said on that programme that you could not imagine there ever being a woman Prime Minister in your lifetime.
Prime Minister
No, I could not at the time. I just did not think that I could foresee my own Party choosing a woman leader, but in life you know, you do look ahead, and it is as well that you cannot foretell what lies ahead. But you have to take every day's opportunities and take them as they come, and they came, and needless to say, I love the work.
Sue Macgregor
Yes, you have been …
Prime Minister
I love that “Blue Peter” programme. I love being questioned by children. They ask unsophisticated straight-forward questions and they like straight answers.
Sue Macgregor
Let me ask you an unsophisticated straightforward question. You have been quoted as saying that you are doing the job that you always wanted to do, and yet ten years ago, or perhaps twelve years ago, you could not really imagine that you would be where you are now? [end p12]
Prime Minister
No, I had no idea. I loved being a Cabinet Minister, and I was with Edward HeathTed. I was Secretary of State for Education. I loved that. With Harold Macmillan before that, I was a junior Minister at Pensions and National Insurance and I am eternally grateful for having done a period of time at that Ministry. It is so complicated, I do not think I would understand it now if I had not been there. But again, you see, the whole thing is, when I left university I could not have thought of becoming an MP—that was in about 1947/48. I had no money, I had only what I earned. Then it became possible, when they started to pay MPs as MPs, it became possible to think of it, and so eventually I became a Member of Parliament and then I was lucky, I became a Junior Minister and learned about how to run a Department from a marvellous Minister, John Boyd-Carpenter. He ran it magnificently.
And then, I ran my own Department at Education and then when we were in Opposition, and because I was a conviction politician, because I said what I believed and will go on saying what I believe, I was made Leader of the Party and one managed to master that, and then Prime Minister.
Life only comes one day at a time and if you make the best use of that day you will be astonished how fast you can rise. [end p13]
Sue Macgregor
Since you have become Prime Minister, your husband has retired from his important job and he is very much now your help-mate.
Prime Minister
Denis ThatcherHe is absolutely marvellous.
Sue Macgregor
Some husbands would find that that was a difficult job, being perhaps more out of the limelight than an important wife. How does he cope with that?
Prime Minister
He has got his own personality, he has got his own views. He does not hesitate to express them, and if now and then they differ from mine, so what! It adds spice to life and I think he is absolutely wonderful and I think people adore him and I do too! He has just made his own niche. He does not like being interviewed by the press, but he goes out and he makes up his own speeches and he writes his own letters and I do not know what he is saying and what he is doing, but I read it with fascination. I could not do it without him. He is absolutely marvellous!
Sue Macgregor
Do his views sometimes differ from yours politically and do you argue at home? [end p14]
Prime Minister
I think he might be more forthright than I dare to be. I think I sometimes have to exercise a little bit more tact than he might do, but isn't it nice to hear it coming straight from the shoulder sometimes?
Sue Macgregor
He does appear to allow you to relax when you get home. I mean, I do not know. I have no personal knowledge.
Prime Minister
We are both hard workers. If you carry on with the sort of intensity of life we both do, you have both got to be absolute hard workers and you have both got to accept what the other does. Well, that happens with us. When I go anywhere and he goes in, we can just flop down and say: “Well, what sort of day have you had?” and talk, and the great thing about families—I remember someone saying to me the other day—a great friend of mine, a widow lady, a great friend of mine, she said, “You know, you are so lucky having Denis.” She said: “You know, the great thing about marriage is there is someone on your side always. It does not matter what you do, even if it is not always wise, but there is someone on your side.” That is right, isn't it?
Sue Macgregor
I wonder if he finds you rather hard to keep up with sometimes? [end p15]
Prime Minister
No, no, no, because he is full of energy.
Sue Macgregor
Your legendary stamina would actually floor most people.
Prime Minister
It does not floor him. He is just the same.
Sue Macgregor
Because you went round the world in, was it 130 hours, the other day.
Prime Minister
Goodness me, I did not work out the hours, about 5½ days, and I wondered before we started how I would stand up to it because we were doing a lot of flying, but I got off it just as fresh as I got on, indeed, very invigorated.
Sue Macgregor
Now what is the recipe?
Prime Minister
I do not know quite what the recipe is except nearly sixty years of training. You eat nutritious food and you are active. You know, if I had years ago needed eight hours sleep I would still need eight hours sleep now, but I trained myself to do with less so I can do with less. I can tell you the [end p16] secret of going from time to time, into different times, across time lines. It is: do not go to sleep. Extend your day until it is night where you are now, and that might mean doing nearly thirty-six hours at a stretch.
Sue Macgregor
What do your aides think about this, all the people who are with you?
Prime Minister
Well, they just accept it. They just accept it.
Sue Macgregor
They do not find it a bit exhausting?
Prime Minister
No, I don't. There are a number of them, but I think they have probably learned to work at my speed too.
Sue Macgregor
You have made the most extraordinary progress, if I may say so, and I do not mean this in any patronising way, I hope you believe that … for a woman. I mean, everybody says that about you because there are so few women in British politics. But some feminists have been critical of you for not having promoted other women, and as far as I know there are no women in your inner circle. What do you say to that? [end p17]
Prime Minister
No, Lynda Chalker now is a Minister of State. She, is, I think is … .. I promoted Lady Young, as you know. She was the first woman Leader of the House of Lords. She is now Minister of State at the Foreign Office. I thought it rather important that we have a woman at the Foreign Office. Lynda Chalker started the same way as I did. You know, she started in the Welfare Department. Then I said: “Now, come on Linda, we are not going to put women in Welfare Departments and say that is the limit of their talent and ability so off you go to Transport,” and she is quite brilliant in it.
We have promoted a woman Valerie StrachanCivil Servant to be a Permanent Secretary of the old Civil Service Department, the Manpower and Personnel Department, so we have in fact, and we are always looking for more.
Sue Macgregor
But there are so few aren't there, Prime Minister?
Prime Minister
But you know, let me say this about women. They are not nearly so self-confident of their abilities as men are and I wish indeed they were more self-confident of their abilities. But then, there are many many married women doing very important jobs, but running the home and in fact doing a job does put extra burdens on them. I used to notice it at Education. We would advertise a Head Teachership and we would get—I remember once, something like 140 men [end p18] teachers applying and only three women, and I understood why. Because they were women in charge of Departments who were prepared both to run their home and do their job, but did not want to take on the extra responsibility. Well, we are getting more and we will go on getting more.
Sue Macgregor
One last question, Prime Minister. You obviously thrive on the powerful nature of your job and the interesting nature and the demanding nature of it.
Prime Minister
It is fascinating. It is such a privilege.
Sue Macgregor
Do you think that you yourself have changed as a person in six years as Prime Minister?
Prime Minister
I suppose so. I think we all do, when we have the kind of experiences that I have had. I mean, Falklands was something that one will never never forget. It is something that most Prime Ministers would never have expected to have to do. Of course it leaves it scars, wounds, Brighton and so on, and one's friends, but of course one has changed. I do not think I am the person to ask, but I can only say this: being Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom is the greatest honour that can be conferred upon any British citizen and I am very sensible of it. [end p19]
Sue Macgregor
Thank you very much indeed, Prime Minister.
Prime Minister
Such a pleasure to see you again.
Sue Macgregor
Thank you for joining us.
Prime Minister
Thank you.