I
Thank you very much for sparing us a little bit of time. I didn't hear you at lunchtime today but I hear that you were … . I think from my point of view … . a year, or a bit more than a year into the second term of office when you said before the Election that you wanted another term to continue to put your policies and bring them to fruition as it were. It strikes me that with a maximum now of four years to a General Election, do you feel that this year has achieved as much in the main directions that you would want it to or have the … and there have been … obviously this year thwarted that unduly?
PM
No, if you look at it, first, Nigel Lawson set out a Budget for a Parliament. He got down personal taxation. We said in our Manifesto that over the lifetime of the Parliament we'd get off the National Insurance surcharge—we got it off in the first session. That's a tax on jobs, that's gone. And he set out his plans for corporation tax, for reducing corporation tax and altered its structure as a public expenditure. He set out a plan … . that was very, very good indeed. He had quite a major privatisation or denationalisation programme—Britoil, … ., Sealink, INMOS, and Jaguar. Now that's not bad. And we put the British Telecoms Bill through. So as far as the financial side and inflation as you know at 5%;, all right it's too high yet. But we're holding it. So that's the financial side, the privatisation side and then as you know we've put through that one of the main parts of our Manifesto which was rate capping and the preparation Bill, the interim Bill for the abolition of the higher tier metropolitan authorities. Now that's as well as putting through many other things like the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill. And we have set up, on the social services side four main inquiries into the working of the social services. Now that takes something over each part of our plans. That's not bad. And of course I might say so at last we've got the long-term solution to the European problem, it's just the interim payment that we're having difficulty with. At last we've got the long-term European … . Oh, and one other thing on foreign affairs. We have started upon the general policy of dialogue with the countries beyond the iron curtain. [end p1] I visited Hungary and I also saw Mr. Chernenko when I went to Mr. Andropov 's funeral. So it's right across the spectrum there, right across the spectrum. I'll say one more thing about the Health Service. As you know, for years we've said we've gone on increasing the numbers of people, non-medical people in the Service, and why do we need to do that? For the first time, the numbers of non-medical people are being reduced but the actual numbers of patients dealt with in the National Health Service is being increased. So that is the real value for money, which is so much a part of our ideas, is working. Can I also just say one other thing? Again, we've managed to persuade Europe that we have to deal with the surpluses of the CAP and for the first time we're starting. I wish we'd managed to persuade them to start before … . for some of our farmers. And we've started on what has to be done. All the long-term things. One other thing I would say here. Although the numbers unemployed are not falling, in fact the numbers in work are going up. Last year we had a quarter of a million more people in jobs, in work and we've had overall 330,000 new jobs in services.
I
But you did say that the overall figure … .
PM
The overall figures are not falling—for the simple reason that we've been through a period of five to six years, because of the past birth rates and because of the effect of the war. Take those two things and we've been through a period of six years where the numbers of people leaving school have been far greater than the number than the numbers of people retiring. So that means we had 1 million more people of working age.
I
So that really has made the problem much worse.
PM
That's made the problem much, much more difficult.
I
So it's been a combination of new technology, all sorts of things …
PM
That's right, yes. But that's quite a lot as you go through the year. As you know we've been going steadily with the negotiations with Hong Kong—that's going to show good results.
I
Yes. Obviously I think it would be unrealistic not at this time to have to … the miners' strike … . [end p2]
PM
Of course.
I
Do you see this situation being the status quo until you come back in October?
PM
I hope not. No Government has ever done more to prevent a strike than this one. You'll ask how. Let me say. First, the pay that the miners had is now about 25%; above the industrial average. It was only 18%; under Labour … . a pay offer. They've had no compulsory redundancies at all. The voluntary redundancy for early retirement which they take voluntarily is the best ever. Let me just give you an example. A man of forty-nine who has spent his life in the pits gets £33,000. If he goes over fifty … . in a different way. It's just about £20,000 as a capital sum, plus £78 a week. And then the other thing which we've tried to do to show our faith in the future prospects for the industry is, we have used taxpayers' money, that's all we had, to put great investment into the new pits with the latest technology, the most pleasant, safe conditions possible for our miners. … . For every day we've been in office, since 1979, £2 million investment in the latest technology, the latest pits, the latest equipment, the latest conditions, the latest safety for the miners. Now we say, no-one could have done more therefore, no Government could have done more to prevent a strike from happening. Now, at first it seemed that it was about the closure of uneconomic pits. Now in the debate we had on Tuesday we tackled that problem, pointing out that the Labour Party had not only agreed the closure of uneconomic pits, they had actually put it into legislation. A section in legislation which provides for the closure of uneconomic pits. A section which they had … . So then, the Labour Party, certain representatives, Mr. Foot and Mr. Benn, said, “Ah, well, it's the procedure.” So yesterday, Mr. MacGregor issued a whole statement about procedure. It is exactly the same procedure that has been operating for ten years and we have no wish to change it, no intention of changing it. So you ask, did I expect it to go on? I hope it won't, because there is nothing as far as the coal industry is concerned to be on strike about. We have done everything we can. We hope very much that those miners who are not at work will look and see the very fair and reasonable offer that there is for them. And go back and start the work so that peace will be restored to the coalfields. [end p3]
I
So it must be very frustrating for you then when people do, particularly in the Opposition, apart from … . keep on saying, actually say now, not just suggest, that this Government is actually out to, if you like, crucify the industry.
PM
But it's absolutely ridiculous, it doesn't stand up. They just repeat what is totally untrue and do it again and again. No-one could have done more than this Government and our job is to get over what we have done. I say it almost twice a week but not everyone listens to me.
I
I can quite see that. But because I think, the one thing that seems to be the thing you hear from people who support you—I think a lot of people are getting very concerned about the increasing cost of policing and apart from the … .
PM
The cost of keeping the uneconomic pits open is very high. Because you see in some of the most uneconomic pits the subsidy per ton of coal is of the order of £87 a ton. The subsidy. Now that subsidy is paid by the taxpayer. The taxpayer last year had to foot a bill of £1,300 million for the coal industry. That is the equivalent of 28p on petrol, £2 a week on the old-age pension … . totality of … . Research Councils, science and engineering, medical, agricultural and environment. … . It's twice the amount … . So you see you only have to pay that amount in subsidy because of the uneconomic pits so it makes sense to run down the uneconomic pits and we've invested in all the new ones.
I
But the cost of policing the strike and coping with the strike can presumably only go on for so long before … .
PM
Yes, but don't forget, so can only go on for so long, the cost of the uneconomic pits which I indicated to you was last year £1,300 million the equivalent of more than a penny on income tax, more than 28p on petrol, etc. So it isn't as if it's between running a highly profitable, efficient industry and a strike. It is as between the year by year, by year, by year cost of what I've indicated.
I
But of course this cost is completely unnecessary … . [end p4]
PM
It is heartbreaking. When you've positively tried to do so much and don't forget some of the taxpayers that are paying this money, paying the subsidies, paying the redundancies, some of those taxpayers aren't getting anything like that pay or voluntary redundancy or investment in their industries themselves. They must feel pretty upset about it too. They're prepared to do it to give the miners a good future. You see if you're restructuring an industry, if you're modernising it then you do get a difficult period of change, and so what you do then, you say right, the people who've spent their livelihood in the pits, that's their capital. Their skill is their capital, that is why you … . redundancy payments. We've done all that. And right now the National Coal Board have had more enquiries to take voluntary redundancy than they need. Well over 20,000.
I
It's such a crying shame because it's an industry with such a potential.
PM
That's why I say everything has been done, so there's nothing about coal really that's left to do.
I
Would you think that one of the other crucial … . that was a potential problem for you and I know you can't comment because it's sub-judice … . GCHQ.
PM
I don't think it had anything at all to do with the coal strike.
I
No, not the coal strike, but if you like I suppose it was this year … .
PM
Yes, but you know over 98%; of the people there took the offer.
I
I'll tell you if I just may one thing that interested me on that, I happened by pure chance to have an interview arranged … . with the President of the CPSA union, the biggest union at GCHQ, which actually fell by pure chance the day after the announcement. I just felt, I'd never met her before, I didn't know an awful lot about her—a fairly moderate trade union leader. … . anybody look so angry, appear so angry and … . and that was within hours. [end p5]
PM
I really can't go into it as I would like to.
I
No quite, I appreciate that.
PM
Because the Court of Appeal is on right now … .
I
I only wonder whether you might have seen it as alienating people who were sympathetic to your … . But I take your point.
PM
I brought GCHQ into line with the other intelligence agencies. One of the reasons why we did so was because it had been selected by the Civil Service union for disruptive action, positively selected for the damage it would do, positively selected. I am in charge of national security and the unions know that they positively selected that for strike or industrial disruption despite the fact that they knew it would do harm to the security of national security services. I can't go on … .
I
It was probably an unfair question really.
PM
Mr. Justice Glidewell found that we had powers to do everything that we did, but he found that we ought to have consulted … . which we didn't … .
I
Do you feel Prime Minister that you have … . end of the year … . came out of the House if you like in a memorable way. But do you feel that you've had the support you would have always wanted, this year alone, from your own MPs and backbenchers?
PM
Yes, I've had excellent support. We really have become an excellent Parliamentary Party working together in a very good way.
I
What would you say during the term, not particularly during the last year, but during your term as Prime Minister since 1979 now … . I know you listed the sort of major achievements of this year, are there any particular things that have given you the most personal pleasure or satisfaction that you've achieved as a Government apart from … . [end p6]
PM
I don't think any particular things. I think we have—… . a sound, prudent financial policy and that really is the basis of everything. In addition to that, our record on the social services would stand comparison with that of any previous Government, indeed slightly better, and even better actually than the previous Government, more than slightly, it's better than that of any previous Labour Government or any previous Conservative Government. Something which people don't always recognise. I think there is one thing. It has given us enormous pleasure to carry through the sale of council houses, we've seen three-quarters of a million people take advantage of it. Because we believe passionately that Britain is a free society and we want it to be a society of independent people and you know having your own home does give you a new independence and a new strength and a new dignity, and also, having your own home, owning your own home is one way to get rid of those awful class distinctions which have bedevilled our society for years. They're outmoded, it's time they were gone. And this is one way we can get rid of them, and that does give me pleasure. I say as I said in my speech … . what we want is every earner to have the chance to become an owner so that everyone has both the income they get from the effort of their hands or their brain, an income on their earnings that also has some stake in the capital of the country. And a house is only the beginning. Also many of them have a stake in the new pension schemes, that again is a capital asset, many of them have assets in building societies, something like over 20 million people invest in building societies or other assets. They're all forms of capital. So that every earner and owner—every man a capitalist. You do get an independence, away with the class divisions.
I
Why do you think your opponents then accuse you, as they do fairly consistently, of actually perpetuating class distinction?
PM
It's absolutely ridiculous. But for that extreme socialist policy based on Marxism which is class struggle, you'd have got rid of the concept of class in this country quite a long time ago. It started to go at the beginning of Mr. Macmillan 's time. I can well remember thinking, that's the time I came into Parliament, thank goodness that's gone. Who brings it back? It's the socialists who start to talk about divisions and start to talk about the class struggle, that is all Marxist talk. You really should look at people, not for where they come from, not for who their father was, not for their background, [end p7] but what sort of person they are and what they are contributing to the society of which we are all a part. All important, all different. But don't have any nonsense about class.
I
Are you looking forward to your holiday?
PM
Yes of course.
I
Just very quickly, Prime Minister, if I could just say, when you do come back in the Autumn … .
PM
Can I just say one thing? I think some journalists think that in my first four years of office, it was all sweetness and light and that I had an easy ride. I didn't. Indeed I think we had an even more difficult time than we've had this time. More difficult time fundamentally … . Although we've got the coal strike which is a great worry to everyone and also when you've done so much for coal you think, well what else can I do? This doesn't seem to be about coal. It seems to be about industrial relations.
I
When you do come back in October, what are going to be the major issues that you'll be wanting to tackle?
PM
Oh well, first, during the recess the work of Government has to go on and it always does go on. We always take time especially during September, the early part of September, to have a look at the strategy of the coming year in view of the longer term objectives which we wish to achieve for the coming year, both on the home front and on the overseas front. Because you've got to get those targets and objectives fixed before you go into a new Parliamentary year. But the big thing next year of course will be the abolition of the metropolitan county councils and further denationalisation. Again it's all putting more assets than property back into the hands of people. Because when you sell off a state asset you put it back genuinely into the hands of people. If you get too much in the hands of the state—don't think politicians can run everything, they can't. It's sort of run by faceless men, you know, who you can't sort of get at. So you want it back and there's the people. I mean you look at the fantastic things which the Sainsbury's, the Marks and Spencers, the ICI's—they're all run … . not by the state. [end p8]
I
What do you think of Mr. Livingstone and his colleagues today? I think it is they're resigning their seats.
PM
It's just a gimmick, it's just a stunt. I'll have nothing to do with it. It's quite an expensive stunt. An election has got to be held.
I
He's saying of course that the Conservatives are foolish not to fight it.
PM
We're not going to have our actions decided by Ken Livingstonehim. If there is someone who genuinely resigns because of illness or they can't carry on … . But just because he's decided to do something does not automatically induce a certain response from us. We decide what we shall do. And we're not having any part of spending extra ratepayers' money. … .
I
Thank you very much.