PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Dr. Marek
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 22 May.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today.
Dr. Marek
Does the right hon. Lady agree that the first use of nuclear weapons invites retaliation and destruction? Will she give the House an assurance that she cannot envisage any situation in which she would authorise the first use of such weapons, even if a conventional war broke out? If she cannot give that assurance, will she bear in mind the overwhelming opinion among experts on both sides of the iron curtain that an initial nuclear exchange would lead to an all-out exchange, which would inevitably lead to the destruction of civilisation?
The Prime Minister
There is an agreement between NATO countries that they will use their weapons only in defence. That is much more valuable than the views to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
Mr. Farr
Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the events that took place yesterday in Wales, when a group of miners tried to start working again in a pit that had been closed? The miners were swamped by the pickets who arrived. There was a very meagre police presence. To encourage future attempts by miners to return to work, will she and the Home Secretary ensure that such attempts by miners to return to work and to do what they want are not thwarted in that way by militant picketing?
The Prime Minister
We were all concerned about the incident to which my hon. Friend referred. I understand that yesterday a crowd of people who had picketed [column 823]Cynheidre colliery gathered threateningly outside the home of a miner. The police were called, but when they arrived the crowd had dispersed. The police are actively investigating the incident with a view to prosecuting anyone who can be identified as having committed an offence. This morning there were about 300 pickets, and some 250 police officers were deployed. I believe that my hon. Friend will join me in congratulating the police on the general way in which they carry out their duties.
Mr. Kinnock
The right hon. Lady will be aware of the dispirited comments made publicly yesterday by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the serious doubts that must now exist about his position in that office. What action will she take to ensure that the necessary authority and confidence are restored to that crucial office?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend is a very effective James PriorSecretary of State for Northern Ireland and will continue to carry out his duties.
Mr. Kinnock
The right hon. Lady does not appear to understand the gravity of the doubts that exist in the wake of the statements that we heard yesterday. Does she comprehend that at this crucial time of discussions about new initiatives it is essential that the people of Northern Ireland, the Government in Ireland, the people of this country and indeed all concerned parties can depend on the fact that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland enjoys the confidence of the Prime Minister and can exercise proper authority in office? Will she now answer the question? What does she intend to do to ensure that that necessary authority and confidence can be enjoyed over these crucial months?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend is Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He does enjoy my confidence. The right hon. Gentleman is simply showing that he has great difficulty in finding a question to ask.
Mr. Speaker
Mr. John Townend, Question No. 2.
Mr. Kinnock
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I am sorry. I must remind the Leader of the Opposition that I had already called the next question.
Mr. Kinnock
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. The right hon. Gentleman has had two opportunities to ask questions and I had already called the next question.
Mr. Kinnock
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker
What is the point of order?
Mr. Kinnock
There is no office of state more serious in its effect or more grave in its importance than that of Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister cannot treat the matter with such frivolity when people's lives and the future arrangements for Northern Ireland are clearly at stake.
Mr. Speaker
I call Mr. John Townend.
Q2. Mr. John Townend
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 22 May.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Townend
Does my right hon. Friend agree that many more miners would like to return to work but are [column 824]deterred by mass pickets, in breach of TUC recommendations? Is it not time that the National Coal Board showed the same courage and resolution as Mr. Eddie Shah and used the laws which the Government have introduced to protect the miners from violent mass picketing?
The Prime Minister
Resort to civil law is, as my hon. Friend has said, a matter for the National Coal Board to judge, but violence and intimidation are covered by the criminal law and that is a matter for the police. My right hon. and learned Friend Leon Brittanthe Home Secretary explained to the House last week the measures that the police are taking to combat the disgraceful intimidation that has been used against working miners. It is ironic that although trade unions were formed to protect their members from threats of intimidation, those who could stop these attempts at intimidation fail to do so and refuse to condemn them. In the meantime, the police continue to exercise their powers with regard to picketing to enable miners who wish to go to work to continue to do so.
Dr. Owen
As more and more jobs in manufacturing industry are lost because of a fall-off in export orders from Third world developing countries—the most recent tragedy being today's announcement about Bathgate—does the Prime Minister accept that there is a heavy responsibility on her at the economic summit to produce measures for a co-ordinated expansion of demand in the world economy and in particular to deal with the problem of debt in Third world developing countries? Is she aware that many people will look to her for an example of leadership at the summit?
The Prime Minister
To expand demand in the way suggested by the right hon. Gentleman would be to create a new round of world inflation and thus to go into a new world recession. We shall, of course, be discussing the problem of international debt. So far, however, I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that it has been handled well both by the world institutions and by the commercial banks.
Q3. Mr. Strang
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 22 May.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Strang
Is the Prime Minister aware that the closure of Leyland at Bathgate in two years' time would be industrial sabotage? Does she recognise that to spend millions of pounds on social security benefits for families living round Bathgate, where male unemployment would rise to over 50 per cent., instead of investing in modern production facilities would be a criminal and vindictive attack on Scotland's industrial base? Is she aware that it would be resisted by Leyland workers and all Scottish people?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman knows that the problem is not of a lack of investment, but of a lack of markets. The Government greatly regret the need to close the Bathgate factory. British Leyland has already kept it going for a considerable time, past the point at which it ceased to be viable. Leyland Trucks' share of a reduced home market fell from 26 per cent. in 1975 to 15 per cent. last year. For Leyland Trucks to survive it was necessary to close down some production, to keep the most efficient production at home, but in other plants.
[column 825]Mr. Best
Is my right hon. Friend aware that throughout the world today a four-continents-based initiative was launched by President Miguel de la Madrid Hurtado and Julius Nyerere, and Prime Ministers Indira Gandhi and Andreas Papandreou through the enterprise of Parliamentarians for World Order? Will she wish that initiative well, as it is based on the twin ideas of finding common ground between the nuclear states, and safeguarding national security? It is probably the most imaginative move for peace in the past 25 years.
The Prime Minister
I read of that initiative only this morning. As my hon. Friend is aware, the Government and the NATO Alliance wish to reduce their armaments, but must be able to do so in a multilateral way with others doing so at the same time. It must be done in a balanced way and be verifiable. Otherwise, security would be threatened instead of enhanced.
Q4. Mr. Terry Fields
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 22 May.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Fields
How does the Prime Minister feel, having attempted to display to the world a caring mother's face and a preparedness to travel anywhere in the interests of her children, when she sees miners' children and families seeking sustenance from soup kitchens and charities? Is she aware of the repugnance felt by millions of people at her attempts to starve miners back to work? Is she not ashamed of herself, and does she agree that she has disgraced her motherhood? Will she consider joining a closed monastic order as quickly as possible to repent of her sins and reflect on her crimes against humanity?
The Prime Minister
At present 43 pits are working completely normally and 14 are working partially in Nottinghamshire, Leicestershire, Lancashire, Staffordshire and Derbyshire. More miners are working now than at the start of the strike. They are earning good wages at good pits, where there is good investment, and their families are flourishing. I trust that others will follow their example. [Interruption.] It is the fault of the hon. Gentleman and those who called them out on strike.
Mr. Onslow
Has my right hon. Friend noticed how many of this man Scargill 's associates in this country and overseas are avowed Communists, dedicated to doing all the damage they can to our society and economy? Does she agree that the country should judge the National Union of Mineworkers' conduct of the strike and reluctance to speak to the National Coal Board against that background?
Mr. Barron
The Coal Board vetoed that meeting.
Mr. Eadie
We wanted it regardless. The Coal Board vetoed it.
[column 826]The Prime Minister
I note what my hon. Friend said. I hope that there will be what is a regular six-monthly meeting between the NUM and the National Coal Board tomorrow at Hobart house. It is highly regrettable that those at the top of the NUM have not condemned and called off the intimidation to which my hon. Friend referred.
Q5. Mr. Proctor
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 22 May.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Proctor
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the collective losses of British Airways, British Rail and British Leyland totalled over £106 million in 1979, and that the collective profits last year were over £118 million? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that many people in this country believe that she should continue with her successful industrial policy, so relieving the burden on the British taxpayer?
The Prime Minister
The British taxpayer has contributed some £1 billion in the last few years to British Leyland. British Leyland is improving. It is vital that it should have efficient operations, and it was necessary to close Bathgate for that purpose. We regret that, but it is due to the lack of markets and not to the lack of investment or support from the British taxpayer.
Mr. Eadie
Why did the Prime Minister encourage Mr. Ian MacGregor to veto the meeting that was proposed to be held tomorrow on the basis that he said it had to be held at Hobart house or nowhere else, when it is well know that the miners are not prepared to cross picket lines? [Interruption.] Is the Prime Minister further aware that the proposed meeting on pensions tomorrow had the venue changed in case there was trouble? Is there any sanity left in 10 Downing street or Hobart house?
The Prime Minister
There are some 50,000 miners working. They are working for themselves and for the good of their industry and their families. The meeting tomorrow is one of a regular six-monthly series of meetings.
Mr. Barron
The right hon. Lady vetoed it.
The Prime Minister
I assure the hon. Gentleman that Hobart house is not empty. There are many people working there. The regular six-monthly meeting will take place at Hobart house to discuss ordinary matters. The chairman of the National Coal Board will be there ready to take the meeting.
Mr. Eadie
The right hon. Lady vetoed it.
The Prime Minister
Should there be a different meeting to discuss the dispute, without pre-conditions, that will take place on neutral ground.