PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. Terry Lewis
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 March.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. I also attended the memorial service for our late colleague Maurice Macmillan at St. Margaret's, Westminster. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today.
Mr. Lewis
The savage sentence meted out to Miss Tisdall contrasts sharply with the establishment—[Hon. Members: “Question.” ]
Mr. Speaker
Order. I must stop the hon. Gentleman. He must be aware that this case is sub judice. Mrs. Knight.
Mr. Lewis
rose——
Mrs. Jill Knight
In between her engagements today, can my right hon. Friend spare a moment to consider whether it might—[Interruption.]
Mr. Lewis
rose——
[column 137]Mr. Speaker
Order. In fairness, I shall give the hon. Gentleman another chance to complete his original question.
Mr. Lewis
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman may complete his question in a moment. I have just called Mrs. Knight.
Mrs. Knight
In between her engagements today, will my right hon. Friend consider whether it might be possible to divert the attention of Mr. Arthur Scargill from the business of investing hundreds of millions of pounds' worth of funds to the best possible commercial advantage to the fact that the miners' strike will put people out of work if they are not careful?
The Prime Minister
I believe that my hon. Friend is referring to problems at certain foundries that are short of coke; Scunthorpe has not enough for steel making. Scunthorpe has made strenuous efforts to get its steel output up to a high quality and to sell it at a very competitive price. The jobs of some of those people would be at stake. They have worked extremely hard. It would be ironic if as a result of the strike people were made unemployed, as customers would go overseas for steel and the products of foundries, and their custom, would never return.
Mr. Terry Lewis
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I ask the hon. Member for Worsley (Mr. Lewis) to take care in framing his supplementary question.
Mr. Lewis
Does the Prime Minister agree that the time has arrived when sentencing policy should be reviewed in terms of cases that affect national security compared with those that do not?
The Prime Minister
No, Sir. Sentencing is a matter for the courts. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that in certain cases we are proposing next year to introduce a right of appeal against a sentence, but it would not apply to the particular case. It would apply only where it was thought that a sentence was unduly low and would be guidance for the future.
Local Authority Services (Privatisation)
Q2. Mr. David Atkinson
asked the Prime Minister if she is satisfied with the progress being made by local authorities to privatise services.
The Prime Minister
No. I am still dissatisfied with the progress that local authorities are making in seeking better value for money by putting their services to the test of competition. We are continuing to study what measures can be taken to speed up the process.
Mr. Atkinson
I welcome that reply from my right hon. Friend. Does she agree that there is now ample evidence from those Conservative councils that have had the guts and the vision to put out their services to private enterprise that that is the most positive way of capping rates? Will my right hon. Friend consider introducing legislation that will oblige all local authorities to compare existing costs for those services with the costs if they are tendered to the private sector?
The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend that there are great opportunities for reducing expenditure by [column 138]submitting contracts to private competition. So far, progress has been very disappointing. Only 23 contracts have been let, but they result in a saving of £7 million annually. I hope that we can be much more successful in persuading local authorities to go out to private competition, but I should be reluctant to commit us to legislation, because that would be a very technical measure to put through the House.
Miss Maynard
Is the Prime Minister aware that there is great anxiety that the Territorial Army will be increased to 86,000——
Mr. Speaker
Order. The question concerns privatisation.
Engagements
Q3. Mr. Blair
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 March.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Blair
When people can be imprisoned for six months for, in effect, telling the British public what the Government should have told them, does the right hon. Lady not agree that there is an urgent need for legislation so that, while the interests of our national security are protected, the Government cannot conceal the scale of what they are doing from the British public and Parliament?
The Prime Minister
[Sarah Tisdall] No. I do not believe that any Government can carry on their business unless they can trust those in the Civil Service who have charge of secret documents to keep those documents to themselves.
Mr. Ashby
Did my right hon. Friend read in the Leicester Mercury the report of Mr. Jack Jones, who said:
“We are not violent men but we will not be intimidated. We have voted to work and even if we” —
[Hon. Members: “Reading.” ]
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member must not read.
Mr. Ashby
Mr. Jones said:
“even if” —
[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Did the Prime Minister hear that question? If this type of baying goes on, neither the Prime Minister nor I will be able to hear the question. Will the hon. Member please repeat his question.
Mr. Ashby
Did my right hon. Friend read the report of the leader of the miners in Leicestershire, Mr. Jack Jones, who said:
“We are not violent men but we will not be intimidated.”
[Hon. Members: “Reading.” ]
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member must not read.
Mr. Ashby
“We have voted to work and even if we are operating the last 4 holes in the country, we will work.”
The Prime Minister
I am not sure that I could hear all of that question precisely. The Conservative party is totally and utterly against intimidation of people who are trying to go about their law-abiding business normally. We believe that the police are doing a superb job enabling those people to get through to their place of work.
Q4. Mr. Tim Smith
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 27 March.
[column 139]The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Smith
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the disgraceful campaign being conducted by the GLC against its abolition?—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. This type of behaviour is very unseemly.
Mr. Smith
That campaign includes threats amounting to blackmail of its suppliers, including my constituents. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that she remains determined to abolish the GLC and the metropolitan counties?
The Prime Minister
Yes, the Greater London council and the metropolitan counties will be abolished in accordance with the provisions in our manifesto. A paving Bill will be introduced in the House shortly.
Mr. Kinnock
In his negotiations in Brussels today, has the Foreign Secretary been given instructions to ensure that any agreement that he makes will contain provision for rebates to the United Kingdom that are sufficient to offset the additional £675 million contribution that will arise if our own resource subscriptions were to increase from 1 to 1.4 per cent.?
The Prime Minister
He is instructed, if I might use—[Interruption.] My right hon. and learned Friend is under the same instructions as I impose upon myself. Sir Geoffrey HoweThe Foreign Secretary would, of course, refer back if there were to be a change.
Mr. Onslow
Does my right hon. Friend think that any Government could carry on their business effectively if the Official Secrets Act 1911 were so amended as to legalise the wilful betrayal of trust by civil servants? Could not a civil servant of any grade who supposes himself or herself to be the victim of a conflict of loyalties ask to be transferred to non-controversial work or resign from the service?
The Prime Minister
Yes. I wholly agree with my hon. Friend. I note that when the matter came up during the lifetime to the previous Labour Government, in June 1976, the then Prime Minister said:
“There must be absolute confidence that papers and discussions that take place are kept within the circle to whom they are given.”
I note that the then Leader of the Opposition said:
“Is the Prime Minister aware that we fully share his view about the gravity of this matter? It is essential that confidentiality of discussions and documents should be assured.” —[Official Report, 17 June 1976; Vol. 913, c. 738–39.]
The then Prime Minister was right, and I was right to support him.
Mr. Winnick
How can the Prime Minister possibly justify the all-embracing section 2 of the Official Secrets Act, which was described by the present Home Secretary [column 140]six years ago as indefensible? Do a Government who have shown such contempt for civil liberties welcome such a section to deal with all those who happen to displease them?
The Prime Minister
The Franks report on the Official Secrets Act was published in 1972. The Labour Government held office from 1974 until 1979. During those five years they could have introduced legislation, but they did not. In 1979 we introduced legislation which did not find favour with the House. We have no intention at present of introducing further legislation.
Mr. Leigh
Is my right hon. Friend aware that an internal CND document—[Hon. Members: “Leak.” ]—on cruise, just published, instructs CND members to render the deployment of cruise missiles militarily useless by informing the world, including our enemies, of exactly where they are sited? Does my right hon. Friend agree that that confirms the impression of many Conservative Members that Lenin 's willing dupes in the CND are now doing the Soviet's dirty work for them?
The Prime Minister
That is correct. They are making a fundamental attack on the defence, security and liberties of our country, including the liberties that enable them to have freedom of speech and demonstration.
Mr. Beith
Would not the country be far better governed if freedom of information legislation protected those areas that should be in the public domain and left the apparatus of the law to protect far fewer secrets?
The Prime Minister
We try to keep protection to such matters as are vital. The hon. Gentleman must understand that it is vital to keep certain matters confidential for security reasons and certain negotiations confidential for commercial reasons.
Mr. Heddle
I refer to my right hon. Friend's answer to Question No. 2. Has she yet read the Audit Commission's report, which shows that local authorities have amassed £250 million in rent arrears? Does she agree that that is a classic case for putting out, at least to the voluntary housing movement, the collection of rent and the housing management function?
The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend that it would be possible to put the collection out to the private sector, possibly with profit to the public sector.
Mr. Frank Cook
Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to make a clear and unequivocal statement of support for the principle that the wishes of the Clevelanders must be paramount?
The Prime Minister
I make a clear and unequivocal statement of support for the manifesto upon which the Conservative party fought the general election.