PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. Geoffrey Robinson
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 16 February.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet, and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today, including one with King Hussein of Jordan. This evening I shall be holding a reception for entrepreneurs at 10 Downing street.
Mr. Robinson
Has the Prime Minister found time today to read the all-party unanimous report on the trade union situation at GCHQ? Does she agree that the reckless bungling of the matter by the Foreign Secretary has resulted only in enormous and unnecessary damage to the international standing of our security system, and to the individual integrity of employees? Does she further agree that the six-point programme put forward in the recommendations of the unanimous report represents a reasoned and constructive basis for an agreement to be reached? [Hon. Members: “Too long” .] For the Prime Minister in particular to show her readiness to accept that programme would be, not a sign of weakness, but of her commitment to a reasoned and constructive outcome to the dispute.
Mr. Speaker
Order. I do ask for shorter supplementary questions. The Prime Minister is evidently suffering from a cold, and I hope that the House will have consideration for her today.
The Prime Minister
I note that the Committee endorsed the Government's objectives, but took a different view of how to achieve them. The Committee is entitled to its view, but the Government remain convinced that their approach provides the only effective guarantee of meeting those objectives. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, intelligence agencies have been treated differently by successive Governments, and this is an intelligence agency.
Mr. Kinnock
May I first sympathise with the Prime Minister over her throat difficulty, and promise privately to offer the name of a good lozenge which I have to be efficacious?
On the vexed subject of GCHQ, the Civil Service unions have offered very firm guarantees against disruption, and they will be reaffirmed at the forthcoming meeting with the Prime Minister. In addition, the Select [column 377]Committee produced not only a constructive report, but a unanimous report. In the light of these developments, does the Prime Minister not now realise that failure to adopt a course such as the one suggested by the Select Committee would be to abandon fair play and common sense, and neglect the national interest?—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. We are not yet being televised.
The Prime Minister
The Government will consider the Select Committee's report but remain convinced that the decisions announced on 25 January are the only effective guarantee of our objectives, which the Committee endorsed.
Mr. Kinnock
Clearly, they are not the only effective guarantee. Does the Prime Minister think that anybody in the trade unions or any member of that Select Committee wanted, any less than herself, to safeguard properly the security of this country? Will the right hon. Lady realise for once that there are alternative courses of wisdom, that they can be secured by the process of democracy, and that they do not require to be made under the duress that she is now enforcing at GCHQ?
The Prime Minister
The Committee endorsed the Government's objectives. It pointed out that the Government had to be satisfied that those objectives could be reached. I have yet to see anything which satisfies me—[Interruption.]—as the Head of the Government, and therefore responsible for the security services, that those objectives can be reached by any other method than that which the Government have laid out. I said that I would see the trade unions again, and I shall.
Sir Hugh Rossi
Does my right hon. Friend find it interesting that the GLC should just have announced a modest reduction in the rate precept, whereas last year, when not faced by abolition, it found it necessary to increase it by a factor of five times as much?
The Prime Minister
Yes, and I think that I draw the same conclusion as my hon. Friend.
Dr. Owen
Why has the Prime Minister abandoned her previously expressed view that it is wrong in principle to have to opt out of paying a trade union levy?
The Prime Minister
We have not. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman will find in our manifesto that we said, first, that we would try to reach agreement of a—
Dr. Owen
What is the right hon. Lady's position?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman is speaking from a sedentary position, which is nothing unusual. If he will do us the honour of reading our manifesto, which won a rather considerable majority, he will find that we said we would try to reach voluntary agreement with the trade unions. Tom KingMy right hon. Friend has, he believes, reached such agreement with the TUC. If that agreement is effective, that will be an end to the matter. If, in practice, that agreement is not effective, we shall have to legislate.
Mr. Gorst
Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that there are contingency plans to meet Government, rather that trade union, inspired disruption that could result after 1 March if there is no agreement either on the basis of the Select Committee's report or her own plans?
[column 378]The Prime Minister
As one of the problems is the selective disruption that has occurred from 1979 to 1981—and as everyone, I understand, is interested in ensuring security—I trust that there will be no disruption.
Mr. Leighton
Will the Prime Minister accept that the considered report of the Employment Select Committee was proffered in a helpful and constructive manner to assist the resolution of the unhappy and unfortunate situation at Cheltenham, which is deteriorating daily? As the right hon. Lady is to have a further meeting with the unions, will she take this opportunity to deny suggestions in the press that she summarily dismissed the report out of hand?
The Prime Minister
I have just answered a question by saying that the Government will consider the Select Committee's report. I have reason to believe that, when John Biffenthe Leader of the House rises, he might have some news for the hon. Gentleman.
Q2. Mr. Freud
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 16 February.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Freud
In the course of her day, will the Prime Minister reflect on the fact that, before the 1973 reorganisation of local government, full local elections were held in April and May of that year so that councillors who would be elected were knowledgable and understanding of their new responsibilities? Will the Prime Minister assure the House that there will be full local elections before the abolition of the Greater London council and the metropolitan councils in all the affected areas?
The Prime Minister
No, Sir.
Mr. Malone
I welcome yesterday's announcement that the next round of North sea oil licences will include provision for up to 180 new fields. However, will my right hon. Friend concede that there is some concern, especially within the United Kingdom Offshore Operators Association, that auctioning 15 new fields will put smaller companies working in the North sea in a difficult position? Will my right hon. Friend take steps to ensure that that does not occur?
The Prime Minister
Only a few of the available licences are being auctioned. The rest will be allocated in a different way. That seemed a fair way of proceeding, to get the best result for everyone.
Q3. Mr. Hardy
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 16 February.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Hardy
Will the Prime Minister find time to consider two urgent aspects of the impending privatisation of special steel? Does she consider it right that the British Steel Corporation should provide more than three quarters of the value of the Phoenix 2 company and then be allowed to hold no more than a minor part of the equity? Does the right hon. Lady share her Minister's disdain for the likelihood that significant customers of special steel, refusing to be dependent upon a single source, will divert their orders to overseas competitors? Does not the right hon. Lady feel that South Yorkshire has already suffered enough industrial devastation?
[column 379]The Prime Minister
The British Steel Corporation and those in Phoenix 2 will come to their own arrangements, which I hope will be satisfactory to all concerned and succeed in getting a better deal for special steel than either would have achieved separately.
Mr. Howard
Does my right hon. Friend not consider it remarkable that, during the many exchanges across the Floor of the House since 25 January on the subject of GCHQ, not one right hon. or hon. Member from any Opposition party has uttered a word in condemnation of the industrial action that has disrupted activity, including that which took place between February and April 1979 when the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) had direct ministerial responsibility for these matters? Does my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. That is enough.
The Prime Minister
It is true that GCHQ was specially targeted for disruption because those in the Civil Service unions who did so knew that disruption at GCHQ would be very damaging to the national interest. I should be grateful if right hon. and hon. Members would condemn that action, if only in retrospect.
4. Mr. John Townend
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 16 February.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Townend
Will my right hon. Friend comment on the action of the European Parliament yesterday, which will make it much less likely that Britain's agreed budget refund will be paid by the end of March? If the refund is not paid on the due date, what action do the Government intend to take?
The Prime Minister
We condemn the action taken yesterday by the European Parliament. We know that the regulations must be approved in time to get the refund at the end of the financial year. If the regulations are not approved soon, the refund cannot be paid and the matter will have to be raised at the March meeting of the European Council of Heads of Government, which would be a pity, as there are many other matters to be settled then.
Mr. Eadie
Will the right hon. Lady, in her busy day, take the opportunity to discuss with her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy the deteriorating situation in the Scottish coalfields? The right hon. Lady is a former shadow spokesman on energy matters, so she has some knowledge of these things. It is not just a question of the overtime ban. There should be a public inquiry into the maladministration and mismanagement of the National Coal Board in Scotland.
The Prime Minister
I totally reject what the hon. Gentleman has said. The matter of the Scottish pits is for the National Coal Board and its management, not for me.
Mr. Murphy
As the Government will soon have to make key decisions affecting the aerospace industry, will my right hon. Friend find time today to consider the importance, not just of backing Britain, but of buying British?
The Prime Minister
The decisions to which my hon. Friend refers will not be long delayed. It is the Government's policy to buy British, but only when British can stand up on price, quality and delivery.
[column 380]Mr. Loyden
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the infantile behaviour of Conservative Members during Prime Minister's Question Time, would you not be thoroughly entitled to extend that Question Time a little?
Mr. Speaker
The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that these episodes are not confined to one side.
Mr. Kinnock
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If I may have the audacity to commend your judgment to the House, may I say that this week's circulated questions for Prime Minister's Question Time took a form that was obvious.
Mr. Bidwell
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If I caught your words aright, your rejoinder to the infantile display by Conservative Members was to the effect that we were not yet televised. May I tell you that a well-known comedian has already made the crack that it would be a good thing to televise the House so that the public would know where we kept the sheep, given the character of the noises that emanate from this place? Can you explain why it is that Members of this honourable House are models of courtesy when they go through the door but thoroughly ill-behaved when they are in the Chamber?
Mr. Speaker
I think that we should clear this matter up now, as we have important business ahead. As for televising the House, the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) and the House well know, in relation to what has happened today, that this is a matter for the House to decide.
Mr. Dixon
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Bearing in mind the antics of the public schoolboys on the Tory Benches—[Interruption.]—who have clearly not stopped yet, do you recall that in the last Parliament—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. We have a very busy day ahead and many hon. Members will be very disappointed if these points of order continue so that I cannot get so many hon. Members into the debate.
Mr. Dixon
In the last Parliament when my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Cunliffe) held up a placard suggesting that the Secretary of State for Scotland should keep his hands off Strathclyde county council he was ordered out of the House for three days. What action do you intend to take about today's events?
Several Hon. Members
rose—
Mr. Speaker
Order. I am in the hands of the House, but if hon. Members complain later that they cannot get into the debate it will be due to points of order of this kind.
Mr. Hardy
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In answer to my question about the pending privatisation of special steel, the Prime Minister said that it was nothing to do with her.
Mr. Speaker
Order. We cannot have a continuation of Prime Minister's Question Time.
Mr. Hardy
It is a point of order.
Mr. Speaker
Concerned with what?
Mr. Hardy
The Prime Minister said that the matter had nothing to do with her. It is obvious and common knowledge in South Yorkshire—
[column 381]Mr. Speaker
Order. I am not taking a further extension of Prime Minister's Question Time.
Mr. Hardy
rose—
[column 382]Mr. Speaker
Order. I deprecate what has happened today and I hope that we shall not see it happen again. I am sorry, but I will not take further points of order on an extension of Prime Minister's Question Time.