Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

TV Interview for Channel 4 News

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: No.10 Downing Street
Source: Thatcher Archive
Journalist: Sir Alastair Burnet, Channel 4 News
Editorial comments: 1700-1800; broadcast that evening.
Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 2262
Themes: Conservative Party (history), Defence (general), Defence (arms control), Defence (Falklands), Employment, Industry, European Union Budget, Foreign policy (International organizations), Foreign policy (Middle East), Foreign policy (USSR & successor states), Liberal & Social Democratic Parties, Science & technology

Sir Alastair Burnet

Prime Minister, now that our allies seem to be having second thoughts about their troops, isn't it time to call it a day and withdraw from the Lebanon?

Mrs. Thatcher

No, I don't think you make sudden decisions like that, for quite some time we've been trying to get an expanded role for United Nations forces. When I was in New York in September I spoke to Mr. Perez de Cuellar about it and again our ambassador in New York was active just before Christmas. He's active again now and the Foreign Office have called in representatives from our embassies in London, but before we leave I think we've got to make alternative arrangements, particularly in the Beirut area and the obvious thing is to get a better role and an expanded role for the United Nations forces.

Sir Alastair

Do you expect to have talks with the other Western Prime Ministers?

Mrs. Thatcher

The Foreign Ministers do meet quite frequently and officials meet even more frequently. The point is I think we must act together and we can't just come out of the Beirut area and leave a vacuum there. You remember how terrible it was before the multinational force went in-and if there was terrible slaughter again, we should all feel very, very guilty indeed that we hadn't made proper alternative arrangements and I think most people would agree that that was the right way to go about it.

Sir Alastair

But isn't there a risk that British troops will be slaughtered?

Mrs. Thatcher

British troops are very, very highly thought of in Beirut, well, I think you know that, you've seen it frequently and displayed it frequently on television. We have only a hundred and ten there, we couldn't go down to any lower number because they wouldn't have the number both to do the job and to defend themselves. They have protected Beirut, they go out and about on tours in scout cars. They're very widely welcomed by the Beirut people and they actually protect the building where the ceasefire talks constantly take place.

Sir Alastair

Now the new President of Argentina has asked for new peace talks with Britain, do you say that sovereignty is still not negotiable?

Mrs. Thatcher

Sovereignty is not negotiable.

Sir Alastair

But this is a democratic government, if you don't talk to them aren't you risking another war in which allied support would be much less?

Mrs. Thatcher

No. You simply cannot lay claim to someone else's territory and then claim that there's a dispute and other people have to talk with you, whether you are a dictatorship or a democracy, but when you have become a democracy, that means the government in power has been put in power by the wishes of the people. You'd expect such a government to respect the wishes of other people. [end p1]

Sir Alastair

But what can you talk to the President about?

Mrs. Thatcher

Oh, all kinds of things, first about trying to restore more normal commercial relations, second, by taking steps to restore diplomatic relations, but that couldn't possibly be done until they agree that hostilities are at an end, you couldn't have diplomatic relations if they haven't said all hostilities have ceased. But as a return for saying that, naturally they'd want the exclusion zone lifted and the exclusion zone is only there because we still have a state of hostilities, so there's quite a lot to do and we would like obviously to have more normal relations if they will.

Sir Alastair

Now here, is it true that you want to stop the Liberal party leader laying a wreath at the Cenotaph?

Mrs. Thatcher

I'm quite happy for the existing arrangements for the Cenotaph to go on, I had no wish to change them at all, and then Dr. Owen wished to change them, and as you know there has been a lot about it in the press. I didn't want to change them, he wished to change them and I pointed out that I thought that the … his party fought as the alliance with the Liberal party and therefore was represented at the Cenotaph. If they are to be changed it's not a matter for me only. It's a matter for the other parties in the House of Commons. I can't just do it alone and therefore talks have to be started with all the other parties in the House of Commons. It has come up once before, when the Scottish nationalists got a lot of members in, before my time, during the lifetime of the Labour government, they said could they not also be represented at the Cenotaph, and the then Labour government of which Dr. Owen was a member, refused their request. Dr. Owen then suggested that he should be there and this has all started in this way. I have no wish to change it, if it is to be changed we must discuss it not with one other party, or with two, we must discuss it with all the parties in the House of Commons and those talks are just starting, so it's a bit too soon for instant comment.

Sir Alastair

But wouldn't it be a good idea if all parties who went to defend this country, and whose members have fought for this country, should be entitled to lay a wreath

Mrs. Thatcher

I think that one assumes that everyone in Parliament is prepared to defend democracy and our way of life, the origin of that, having the three party leaders, was of course when the ceremonies at the cenotaph came just in the post-war period, to demonstrate to the world at large that they'd all served in a coalition government in order to defend our way of life. Now what happened, the liberal party went when they only had I think six members in the House of Commons. Now do you say any party that's got six members, and what happens if they lose one in a by-election and why should not other parties be represented if you're represented when six, and so on? There are an infinite number of questions. I'm not going to decide a national …   . a great national occasion like that unilaterally, I couldn't possibly do it, nor should I be entitled to do it, so we have to discuss it through John Biffenthe Leader of the House and with [end p2] Leon Brittanthe Home Secretary, with the other parties, and come to some arrangement, which they all accept and which will endure. And then of course it is also a great Royal occasion too. That's most important of all, and we have to bear in mind that we lay our wreaths after the Queen, as head of state, and members of the Royal family have laid theirs.

Sir Alastair

It's January now and the Cruise missiles are at Greenham Common, do you think that they are here with the wholehearted support of the British public?

Mrs. Thatcher

I believe that the British public is wholeheartedly behind NATO and realises that NATO is our strength—our shield, NATO is the real peace movement. I believe they know that the stationing of Cruise and Pershings was a NATO decision and I believe that when it is explained in that way they accept the stationing of Cruise and of course of Pershing in Germany and I believe that they know that we have an arrangement which has endured for many years with presidents of the United States, which has been recently renewed, that no nuclear weapon could be launched or fired from our territory without the specific consent of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Sir Alastair

Although in the recent state papers that have been released it seems that at least Sir Anthony Eden was worried about the arrangement with the Americans.

Mrs. Thatcher

The arrangement, as you know, between Churchill and Truman was published, and if you look at that I think you'll find that there has been some confusion which has been caused by that recent release, confusion which is not real.

Sir Alastair

Would you go to Moscow to try to renegotiate missiles on both sides of the iron curtain?

Mrs. Thatcher

I have no wish to go to Moscow at present, I believe that it would be very good if we could have more members of the Soviet government travelling the world, as we travel the world, Mr. Gromyko certainly does and I would like more of them going out and about and coming to see our way of life and coming to talk to us. As you know the tendency is for Western statesmen to go there. But let's get them out and talk to them. I think the important thing now at this rather crucial stage in East/West relations is to get a greater general understanding, if we do that you know the details will come but I don't think you'll necessarily get the general understanding by negotiation on very complicated details. I hope they'll go back to Geneva to negotiate. We have the Stockholm conference but I really want more general talks with more of them.

Sir Alastair

Now you're going to Hungary but what else can you do?

Mrs. Thatcher

Well, let's go to Hungary first, I hope we'll go to a number of other places, I hope in due course of time that a number of the Soviet leaders might come here and go elsewhere. I notice that our understanding is best with those countries whose leaders we see quite frequently and it's very important that we do that with the Soviet Union. [end p3]

Sir Alastair

You see the European …   . the West European leaders very frequently, will you really go as far as stopping Britain's payments to the Common Market unless you get a better deal?

Mrs. Thatcher

You know the latest developments, on 31st December we hadn't been paid our 1982 refund in full, we waited until then, then we sent a very detailed note which was delivered today, by our Community ambassador, Sir Michael Butler, to Monsieur Gaston Thorn, President of the Commission, pointing out we've not had our £42 million and that the Community was therefore in default with us and we hope that the Commission would make arrangements to pay it. There's another very large amount, much much larger, something like £450 million, due at the end of March, I hope that will be paid. I hope both lots will be paid, one technically is in default, I hope they are not going to default with the other. If they do then we will have to, in the famous phrase, and I think they all know exactly what it means, but some things are a little bit better wrapped up—that we shall have to take steps to safeguard our position.

Sir Alastair

That means you will take steps?

Mrs. Thatcher

Oh indeed yes, we need the money. It's ours, it's due to us. It's promised.

Sir Alastair

Do you think M. Mitterrand wants you to have the money?

Mrs. Thatcher

I think when the time comes Francois MitterrandHe will recognise that it is very much better if we do have it on time as was promised by all heads of government at Stuttgart.

Sir Alastair

The economy is looking a little bit better, but can you talk about a recovery while there are still three million unemployed?

Mrs. Thatcher

I think we are into different technological times and that is a factor which we must take into account in our unemployment, as well as the world recession, we really are in a third industrial revolution and therefore that means that one can manufacture the same number of goods, indeed an increasing amount, with fewer people, we're also still hit as you can see from the shipbuilding dispute, by people refusing to give up their restrictive practices and therefore the business goes elsewhere. Now if you look at the history of the heavy industries and the big state industries as well as the private industries, both, they have employed fewer people over the past ten years. That trend is going to go on and you get more and more into the service industries, into insurance, into tourism,—into many many things that our forefathers never thought of and opportunities they didn't have. Now the first steps of new technology tend to put people out of work, the second stage tends to create all kinds of jobs, well, television is an example, our forefathers never thought of, all kinds of jobs that didn't exist previously. We're in the interim now, and I hope this year we shall be in that stage where although there will still be more redundancies, but we shall be getting increases, new business and extra business, so that we shall have unemployment levelling off and then we shall be able to go into a regeneration period, so that we can get more jobs for people. I believe they will come as they came after the second industrial revolution and after the first one. [end p4]

Sir Alastair

So you think the second stage starts this year?

Mrs. Thatcher

I believe that the levelling off starts this year, but we're already starting the second stage, and as you saw the news that we're doing very well in our new electronics industry. The fact is in part of industry and in part of our whole industry there is a revival, but we're still getting redundancies in some of the old industries, so the overall picture is of some coming down and some starting up but the revival is starting and I want it to gather pace, it's the spirit of enterprise, they have it in the states, they've never lost it. We went into so many controls that we have to get it going again, but we shall.

Sir Alastair

Thank you Prime Minister.