Michael Aspel
Thank you. Thank you very much. Good evening and welcome to the last of the present series of Aspel and Company and I'll just close the file on last week's show. There was a letter from a viewer in Willesden who wrote: ‘How fascinating to hear Vincent Price describing his role as a vampire—it put a little bite into the programme.’ And a tele-message: ‘Have just heard that Dudley Moore is looking for people of restricted growth for next film. Would like to apply to play three of them, signed John Cleese.’ And all that is history. Tonight is, as I say, a special show and we have extra special company. Many people have wondered if my first guest ever takes time off from her incredible schedule of work. The answer is: she does. At least long enough to be with us tonight without her official hat. Ladies and Gentlemen, The Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher.
Michael Aspel
Prime Minister, this is a rather different sort of question time from the sort you are used to. Yours is an extraordinary life at the best of times and the strain must be colossal. How on earth do you cope?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I'm often asked and the answer is that I don't really know. I know that my Beatrice Robertsmother coped with her life and I just think that women have a special capacity to cope. They manage to cope with a job, they manage to cope with home, they manage to cope with bringing up children, they manage to cope where there's any emergency. And I'm no different from any other.
Michael Aspel
There are maybe a few who wouldn't quite agree with that. Despite all the pressure you do actually seem to have blossomed with the job. What time does your day start? [end p1]
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I usually turn on the radio early morning, about six o'clock, we get the news briefing then and I then know what's happened overnight, and listen to the farming programme and then the news and then get out about a quarter past seven, so it's not too bad.
Michael Aspel
Yours is a very strong constitution, obviously. Are you never ill? Do you take pills?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I am never ill. I take, usually every day … You really are trying to learn my secrets aren't you? Okay, what is the secret? I usually take vitamin C every morning. I don't have breakfast, I take vitamin C in some very nice sparkling water.
Michael Aspel
Thank you. It's a …
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Do you want to try it?
Michael Aspel
It sounds delicious. I will try it once thank you.
It might help with the bags under the eyes.
It's unique for a Prime Minister to appear on a show like this when the Prime Minister is in office and many people will be asking how on earth you've found time to fit us in, particularly with the stressful time you're going through now.
How do you manage to do it?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
First by arranging one's day. It's very, very full. But I've got to get out. I must. You see if a Prime Minister is just in No. 10 or at Chequers or just seeing heads of organisations, or just seeing other politicians, you'll lose touch. So every week somewhere I'm out and about and I must be and so I was very grateful to you when you gave me the invitation and you're quite right, I'm just hoping that Question Time will be so much kinder from the one I'm used to on Tuesday.
And I think it's a lot less noisy. I think you actually will be heard here. [end p2]
Michael Aspel
Well, we're after different kind of answers, that's the thing. You're a very seasoned television performer. Do you still feel nervous when you appear?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Well, I'm not a professional and I'm not a seasoned performer at all and I always feel extremely nervous because we're on with you professionals. Are you nervous?
Michael Aspel
Extremely.
We're all actors.
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
And I saw you had Janet Brown on last week.
Michael Aspel
It's interesting you should mention her because I was going to ask you if you like watching yourself, for a start, on television?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
No, I never watch myself and the family know it.
I know that I'm quite, that I'm on quite often, in the news, or because I've been doing some kind of talk or interview. And usually I've recorded it and then I go home and the family wants to watch and I just cannot stay in the room. I simply cannot bear watching myself. So I say well if I'm going to stay in the room you've got to turn it off. And then we wait until I think I'm off and then they can turn it on. I just cannot stand it. The only time I ever do is if I have to do a Party Political; very dull aren't they? Sometimes I think, you know, we could do without them. They're the things that people turn off, you know, when they come up. But if I'm doing one of those and that is filmed and I will just have a look at that because I know it hasn't gone out. Otherwise, no, I can't bear looking at myself. [end p3]
Michael Aspel
Well, people do as you've just acknowledged, enjoy seeing Janet Brown being you. Now, I don't know if this is accurate but we have a little clip here of Janet Brown leaning over the garden wall at No. 10, talking to ‘her next door’.
Janet Brown (As Margaret Thatcher)
My word hasn't it been a lovely drying day. Mmm …
Which apart from being good for my clothes must also be good news for my Cabinet Wets … No, not now Denis, no … . No, this is woman's talk. What's that? What? Your hollyhocks. Yes, I think they're lovely, lovely. That's the only thing that puzzles me how do you get them to grow so tall? (PAUSE) Oh. Oh, I see. Yes, well I suppose that's one of the advantages of living so near Horse Guards Parade.
Michael Aspel
Is that accurate Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Why ask me? I think Janet Brownshe looked marvellous. She's much slimmer than I am which is a great relief to me. You know, to have someone imitate you who is nice and glamorous and slim, I'm very lucky. I don't think it can quite be accurate because the garden wall at No. 10 is about twelve feet high. We have to climb up quite a lot of ladders to look over it. I think she's terrific and you know just seeing her reminds me of something. She was wearing blue because everyone expects me to wear blue and I really rather like wearing this fuschia colour now and then. And I remember, I was going to a dinner one evening, it was a Press Dinner and I thought well they won't necessarily expect me to be in Party Political colours. And I borrowed a dress, it was so glamorous, much more glamorous than I would usually wear. A lovely crimson one. And all went well and I did my speech and then they gave me a bouquet and you know they had dyed every flower blue and I felt terrible, terrible. I thought I should've been in blue. I hope it doesn't matter being in this colour.
Michael Aspel
It's perfect for our set. [end p4]
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Oh dear, that sounds very rather like Question Time at the House of Commons.
Michael Aspel
I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm a frustrated politician. When … may I take you back? When did you know that you wanted to be a politician?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I can remember really quite well. I was at University and it was in recess and we were having an evening, a social evening, I think in someone else's village hall and I was staying with a friend. And we went back late, just talked and talked, she was one of my friends and had quite a large party staying in the village. And so we just gathered in the kitchen and talked. And I was asked about my interests and naturally I began to talk about politics. But I knew that I couldn't afford to be a Member of Parliament. They had very little pay then and I had to earn my own living. And so I'd never really formed any ambition to become a Member of Parliament. But I just talked about things which I love to talk about. So, all of a sudden, one of the guests said: ‘You want to be a Member of Parliament don't you?’ And I said: ‘Yes.’ You know, but someone else had to crystallise the feeling, then I knew it was what I wanted to be.
Michael Aspel
When you became an MP in 1959, did you have any thoughts at all that there could be a woman Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
No, I didn't. Erm … indeed I think I was asked at one stage, do you think there'll ever be a woman Prime Minister and I think I said no, not in my lifetime. But you can't foresee what's going to happen, no one can. And you take life not in years, you take it a day at a time and if you just do the best you can with each day, well you may get to No. 10. [end p5]
Michael Aspel
You talked about the family and, of course, you've had tremendous support from yours. How does your husband feel about having to take a back seat?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Oh, but Denis Thatcherhe doesn't.
I mean, he has his own career, his own life, and he's pretty forthright on many things and a very good thing too. He does a lot of work, he does a lot of work for many charities. For Sports Aid Foundation, for anything rugby football. For him rugby football is an absolute religion. So he goes out and does his own thing and my goodness me he says some forthright things too. Marvellous.
Michael Aspel
Between 1953 and 1959 you became a barrister, you became an MP, and you also became a mother. Did you ever … was it a shock when you discovered you were expecting the twins, or twins?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Yes, it was, because I didn't know until the day they were born. I had no idea that twins were coming. They were born a little early. They were born six or seven weeks early and as sometimes happens with twins, they started to come early and it was not terribly easy and the doctor suddenly said I think there are two there and I remember saying, well I hope you can get both of them. Well, you know, it can be a little bit difficult and he was just very skilled and my goodness me they're both very very strong personalities. So was it a shock? Well, you know, you just take anything that you're told at such a time and all right, yes they were born, thank goodness they're healthy. Does anyone mind, you know, if they're healthy and wonderful? You're very, very lucky.
Michael Aspel
I am the father of twins and I had insured against it so I did suspect … [end p6]
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
No, no, no. I didn't insure against it. Marvellous.
Michael Aspel
Do they still turn to you for advice?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I think we all turn to families for advice and when I say, I will say when they have watched this show, well, how was it? And my dear they will tell me. Or sometimes I will read things in the papers, sometimes they're very cruel, sometimes I know they're not true, but sometimes you will read something from a friendly journalist and it will make you think, and you say, well, now look, is that right? And again your family will tell you. This is what families are for. So I turn to them for advice and of course they'll turn to me for advice sometimes and say look, what do you think, Mum? And Carol ThatcherCarol, of course as you know, is on television sometimes, and sometimes she's on radio and she often takes over at very difficult times. She goes in Christmas Day, Boxing Day, and she does a phone-in show. And if you're doing a phone-in show from about ten o'clock at night to two o'clock in the morning, there comes a time when you don't really get many people phoning in. So I said to her at Christmas night when she just went up to the show: ‘Well if you're short of telephone calls, dear, just phone me.’ Just after midnight she said: ‘Mum, I've run out.’ I said: ‘All right, I'll keep you going for twenty minutes.’
Michael Aspel
How marvellous! Do you still get the opportunity to get together very often as a family?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Not often enough. But when we're all living together, which we're not now, yes always late at night, then we'll just sit down and exchange experiences. A family just keeps you down to earth. I couldn't do without one. I wouldn't be without one. It would be very difficult to do my job without one. You've got to have someone to whom you can let your hair down. [end p7]
Michael Aspel
You have a reputation for being someone who never relaxes, but do you and how?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I don't have time to relax very much. And let me put it this way. I'm doing the one job in the world which I really want to do. Which I love. And work to me is pleasure. So I don't have very much time and even the things I do, in a way, are relaxation. If I have to read things up it's a relaxation. I love music, I love gardening and I love just pottering round the house. Now for a housewife that's a bore. For me it's a relaxation. If I've got to turn out drawers or turn out the airing cupboard or get the kitchen tidy—it's relaxation for me and I like it. Or just go through some interior decoration books, or move the furniture around, I'm a great mover of furniture around.
Michael Aspel
What makes you laugh, Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
“Yes Minister.” “Yes Minister.” I think it's absolutely marvellous. It's very right a lot of it. Absolutely marvellous. And do you know recently I did a “Yes Prime Minister” , just two and a half minutes because one of my own friends and I wrote the script, it's jolly difficult to write that script I can tell you, we couldn't keep going for more than two and a half minutes and then sometimes you just have to laugh at yourself. When things go wrong. Or at the House of Commons, you know, you can always have a double entendre, then you really have to be very careful. My first junior ministerial job was with Harold Macmillan and I was the Parliamentary Secretary to The Ministry of Pensions and I worked very hard and I knew all my statistics and I went round to all the Pensions Organisations and there was a very great issue, there still is, it's the earnings rule. Pensioners Earnings Rule. They still want to abolish it and there's the question of the cost of abolishing it and I had a figure and people just didn't think that figure was right so I said all right, I will just check. Sent someone to the Civil Service Box to check. And my mind was on the job, as it would be, and along came a piece of paper out of the despatch box, so I picked it up and said, looked at it, and I said: ‘I have the latest red-hot figure.’ Yes, exactly you're a man. You see, the girls don't laugh, exactly. That's exactly the point. Exactly the point. [end p8]
I didn't think of what I was saying at all. The whole place collapsed around me. Collapsed around me. I've never done it again. Never done it again.
Michael Aspel
Well, you weren't wearing a fuschia coloured dress as well.
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Well, I was a lot younger then.
Michael Aspel
You live over the job at No. 10. Is it possible to feel at home there?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I sometimes feel as if I started life living over the shop and I live over the shop now. Because people always come up. Is it possible? Well, I'm always on the job. People think of No. 10 (LAUGHTER). APPLAUSE.
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
People think of No. 10. People think of No. 10 really as the home of the Prime Minister. It really is the office of the Prime Minister. A hundred people work there.
Michael Aspel
It's a huge place isn't it?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
It is a huge place. And I have just a little flat at the top. And I love that little flat and we don't have any permanent domestic staff or anything like that so when we get up there we can relax totally. [end p9]
Michael Aspel
With the incredible schedule that you have, how do you manage always to look immaculate, particularly on these foreign trips?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
It isn't easy. You work them out fairly carefully before you go and you get a list of the engagements you have and I just make a note beside which dress I will wear and then we've worked out which shoes and so on. And the dresses have names, because that's the easiest way. You know, cloudy, English garden, plum lightning …
This is just fuschia I'm afraid.
Michael Aspel
It's very poetic stuff. And do the arrangements always go like clockwork as you are the Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
No, I discovered that if you try to get it too organised, things always go wrong. So you've got to get it reasonably well planned but always be prepared to vary it. Never get it worked down to the very last detail because it won't work out that way.
Michael Aspel
Do you have an infallible memory yourself?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I have. I'm lucky. I have a very, very good memory. I was trained as a child to have a very good memory.
Michael Aspel
I asked you that because I seem to remember hearing about a case where your passport was not quite right and you were dashing off somewhere …
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Have you found out about that one?
Michael Aspel
I've caught you out. [end p10]
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
You've caught me out. In about 1966 or 1967 I was going on my first tour to America and I was going on a speaking tour for about six weeks, and yes I got everything beautifully ready, beautifully packed, everything that I wanted, and I went down … In those days there was a very big air station at Victoria, you caught a bus from Victoria. And so I arrived there, handed over my ticket, my passport and a man said your passport's out of date, out of date. But … so I haven't got a good memory. Fortunately, it's my habit always to arrive early. I had arrived an hour and a half before the bus, so I simply called a taxi, dashed down to Petty France, got a renewal of a passport, got back, got on the bus and caught the aircraft.
Michael Aspel
I'm impressed.
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
It's quite different because you see I always turn up an hour and a half before. Denis ThatcherDenis is very different. He doesn't even get the day right. When we got first married, he travelled the world to try to get orders to keep the factory going and he went off on a six weeks tour every year. That was the time when I knew I could get things done in the house when he wasn't there but I went to see him off and we turned up at that self-same air station and he handed over his things and the girl said, your aircraft went this time yesterday. So he does … he wasn't in the least bit flustered, he said, well, you'd better get me on the next one now, hadn't you? And he got there.
Michael Aspel
Inevitably you've faced criticism. Every Prime Minister does. But yours has been particularly spiteful at times. ‘The milk snatcher’ ‘Atilla the Hen’. How do you cope with these remarks and the cartoons that are done of you?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
Well, the cartoons are very funny. And I think cartoonists are marvellous. Some of the other remarks are, well, they hurt. They'd hurt anyone who had them. And I notice that some of the journalists who write them, if someone writes something horrid about them, they're just as hurt. And I find it very difficult because you will have a journalist around and you. [end p11]
And then sometimes they'll go and dip their pen in acid and write really horrid things. Well, I've learnt to live with it because if it looks horrid or someone tells me it's horrid, I won't read it. Now, you might think that's cowardly. It isn't really. I've seen the effect on other politicians, of all parties, when these horrid things are said and it doesn't matter how tough a man is, as well as a woman, it doesn't matter how tough they are, they are hurt and they are deeply wounded, I've never known one who wasn't. And I've watched them. And you know for the next two or three hours they almost can't think of the things before them and I've said to them, time and time again, don't read it and I know why. Because it bothers you so much that you then are not in a position to make the kind of judgements that you ought to make, so it is a kind of protection, but they do hurt.
Michael Aspel
At the end of the day in the House, when you and the opposition have been nose-to-nose and shouting at each other, do you then all go off at the end of the day and say” , Let's have a drink, and Neil, you're on good form today” ?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I don't think I've ever had occasion to say quite that. APPLAUSE.
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
But you do form friendships across THe House.
It's that kind of place and you couldn't quite carry on the business of the House if you didn't. And you can always, always find friends, some friends among the opposition and they can find some friends among us, personal friendships and people to whom you do discuss things.
Michael Aspel
What weaknesses would you admit to, Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I think I must have an enormous number. But I don't think I would tell anyone. Mr. Kinnock might be listening. [end p12]
Michael Aspel
How are you going to spend your time when you are no longer Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I hope to have a lot of time to think about that yet.
Michael Aspel
When that day eventually comes. What will you first set your sights on?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I shall have to be very active because that's the way I've lived. I've worked and I love work and I think somehow … I've never kept memoirs, I've never kept diaries, but I think somehow I will have to get some sort of account together but then I will just go on helping the things in which I believe. I'll always do that and I'll just go on helping my own particular good causes.
Michael Aspel
And on a personal level—more time in the garden?
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
I would love to build a garden again. Love to. I've built two. One on an acid soil and one on a limey soil. I'd love to build another.
Michael Aspel
Prime Minister, it will be, as you say, perhaps rather a long time before you do, but thank you for taking the time to join us tonight. Prime Minister, thank you very much.
The Prime Minister—Margaret Thatcher
It's a pleasure.