Mr. Michael Foot (Ebbw Vale)
I believe that it has been to the benefit of the House and the country not only to have this debate, but for the House to have before it in preparation for the debate the document that the Government have presented about the last period of negotiations. I underline to the Government my hope that they will provide at an early date a larger document. There are documents concerned with Peruvian proposals and the proposals made by Secretary of State Haig. The House and the country have a right to have those propositions before them. The House can see from what has happened here today how absurd it would have been if we had proceeded without having the latest proposals, which the Government have had published in preparation for the debate, albeit at fairly short notice.
I shall certainly comment upon that document and particularly upon the latest remarks that the right hon. Lady made about the Secretary-General's proposals. In my opinion, that is the most important aspect of the debate, and I shall return to it.
There are one or two preliminary matters that I should like to underline afresh. I do not claim that they are novel in any sense. I believe that it is important that we should clearly understand them. First, I refer to the debate of 3 April. I know that there are some people who say that the House reacted in a spirit of impetuosity. I believe that there were good grounds for what was done and that it was the expression by the House of its feeling of moral outrage at what had occurred. I believe that the House was right to underline its concern for the Falkland Islanders. They were the people who were most afflicted and against whom the least possible accusation could be made. They were living their lives perfectly innocently. They were interfering with nobody, and it was the interference with their lives that gave rise to that feeling in the dabate on 3 April. I do not believe that the House needs to apologise for that in any sense. We are concerned not only about the rights of the Falkland Islanders, but with their lives. We have to take that into account, and what kind of protection we can best afford them.
Let me refer also to another matter which became prominent during that debate—even though we did not know the exact outcome—and that is resolution 502, which has been the sheet anchor of the British case throughout the world during the whole period. The passage of that resolution was a matter of major importance. The allegiance of the House to that resolution has been of major importance, and it has been our guide throughout all the difficulties.
I do not believe that it would have been possible for us to proceed without some such resolution to which every Member of the House has given his support in one form or another. It is important that that should be reiterated because it was primarily on the basis of that resolution that we were able to command support for the British case throughout the world. It was important for us to insist upon it. I do not claim any precedence in the matter, but we on the Opposition Benches attach the greatest importance to upholding the United Nations charter and organisation. The crisis has proved that if we did not have the United Nations Charter we would have to invent one, if we did not have the United Nations Organisation we would have to invent one, if we did not have a Secretary-General who could assist in these matters we would have to—[Interruption.] I shall come to the Secretary-General in a moment, and I hope that there will not be derision from any part of the House. Any such derision is repudiated by the Opposition. I am sure that it is repudiated by the Foreign Secretary. I believe that in the crisis our allegiance to the United Nations charter and organisation has been of enormous importance and it should be continued. It is the bedrock of our policy.
I know that there may be some doubts on this point, but the view that I have held throughout is that I support the action under resolution 502. It was necessary for the Government to send the task force. In the debate of 14 April I gave my reasons for that view. I still hold that view about the task force, and it is of absolute importance that it should be under political control. The right hon. Lady has constantly reiterated that that is the case, and, of course, it must always remain the case, especially if there is to be an escalation of the military action over the coming days.
If our troops are sent in to further escalating military action—whatever it may be—I am sure that it is the desire of everyone in the House that the action should be as swift and successful as possible. We said that at the time of the recovery of South Georgia. I repeat it because I believe that it is important that it should be said.
The right hon. Lady sometimes refers to “our boys” , as if they are her boys. They are not exactly her boys. [Interruption.] We have to deal with our Ministers and their responsibility. We are perfectly entitled to make whatever demands we wish in that respect. In sustaining the rights of the country the Government have had the fullest support from the Opposition. I do not believe that anybody could complain upon that score.
I come to some of the legitimate doubts and anxieties that people in the country have argued about from the beginning of the crisis in April. As time has elapsed it has become evident that it is incomparably better that the dispute should be settled, if possible, by peaceful means. When I use the expression “incomparably better” I mean exactly that. A long list of factors can be cited to illustrate how much greater would be the advantage if we could have a peaceful settlement.
First, there is the obvious factor, which I am sure is agreed by everybody in the House, of the danger of the loss of life of our young men, the Argentines and the Falkland Islanders themselves. All their lives might be involved. That is the first reason why it is important for us to seek a peaceful settlement of the dispute and why we have emphasised that throughout the period. There are other reasons, as the Government know and that we have mentioned in the debates. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) particularly mentioned the possibility that if certain actions were taken, which I do not intend to describe now—all of us can understand them—we could lose some of the backing that we have in some other parts of the world. I am sure that the Government would not ignore such a development. It could happen, although I do not want it to. We must ensure that action is taken so that it does not occur. However, it is one of the factors in the situation.
Other factors are the geography of the matter, its diplomatic history, and many of the other developments that were discussed in the debate last Thursday. They cannot all be pushed aside by impatient Government Back Benchers. In considering the way in which the debate has been conducted throughout the country, special credit [column 486]should go to the newspapers which have sought to withstand the hysteria and stupidity that have been spread in some quarters. All honour should go to those newspapers—The Guardian, the Daily Mirror, the Financial Times, The Observer and The Sunday Times—which have withstood the hysterical nonsense contained in many others. It has been good for the reputation of this country, and advantageous to the attempt to secure peace.
I come now to the document which the right hon. Lady and the Government have presented.
Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd (Morecambe and Lonsdale)
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Will he take the opportunity at this stage, at the outset of his comments, to say whether he feels that the British Government should have offered more than was contained in the proposals?
Mr. Foot
I am coming to that matter, as I said at the beginning of my remarks that I would, but it was perfectly right for me to put my remarks in the context that I have. I certainly do not intend to be dissuaded from that purpose by the hon. Gentleman. I shall, of course, answer his question.
The right hon. Lady and the Government have presented the terms of their document to us. Since I received it earlier today, I have read it, and I believe that it presents a clear and formidable case. Anyone who claims differently would not be reading it intelligently. The Government have stated clearly the principles on which they have acted—the principles of democracy and self-determination—and they have indicated some matters on which they have been prepared, I shall not say to compromise, but at any rate to make proposals which they believed would help towards a settlement.
It is important that that should be underlined, too, particularly in view of the accusation made in some quarters that the Government have been solely intransigent on the matter, as is said in Buenos Aires. The reputation of the case in this document is a matter of value for the present and for the future. If the Government could secure a settlement on the basis that they have proposed, we in the Opposition would be gratified as, I am sure, would the country and the world. In my view, they are fair proposals, and it is right that they should have been presented in those terms.
However, I also say to the Government—[Hon. Members: “Oh!” ]. One cannot get peace by just roaring in the House of Commons. There would have been peace long ago if that was the way to get it. As those who have been engaged in those matters will understand, much more important issues are involved. There are other factors in the Government's statement that I believe should be considered.
There are many defects in the Argentine proposals, to some of which the Prime Minister very properly drew attention, because many of them are deeply objectionable to the country. I could cite some, but there is no need to cite them all. The one about South Georgia, for example, is an extremely difficult proposition, and one that this country would find it impossible to accept. There are other proposals of that nature. However, I do not believe the right hon. Lady when she says that the Argentine proposals, as outlined in her document, amount to a complete rejection of all proposals. Indeed, I do not believe that the Foreign Secretary would claim that. In the [column 487]debate last Thursday, the right hon. Gentleman suggested that there had been some movement towards the acceptance of two essential requirements that the British Government had rightly insisted on from the very beginning: first, the requirement about withdrawal and, secondly, the requirement of no preconditions about the eventual discussions that were to take place. I do not say that what Argentina proposes on those two items is adequate in any sense, but to say that it is a total rejection on those grounds does not seem to be an accurate account of the state of affairs.
However, the right hon. Lady—here I come to the most important aspect of her speech—said that we have had dozens of proposals. [Hon. Members: “Seven” .] Yes, seven. That is quite enough. then she said that someone has to make an assessment. That is quite right, but it is a question not only of this Government making an assessment, or of an assessment being made in this country; it is also a question of an assessment being made by others, and among those who are entitled to make an assessment on how we are to get peace or war in this matter is the Secretary-General of the United Nations. No one could be more determined to ensure that than the right hon. Lady. She has been saying that. If any of her hon. Friends do not back her in that, they can say so, but she has been most forthcoming on this subject. At the beginning of the week, in response to questions, she said:
“We've been at this for six weeks and we're having one last go to see if we can get a peaceful settlement.”
The questioner on the programme asked:
“How long can that one last go, go on for? Days, hours, weeks?”
To that the right hon. Lady replied:
“Well, it occurs through the Secretary-General of the United Nations who is being very active indeed. A person of total integrity. And it just depends how long he thinks he can go on.”
That was one answer from the right hon. Lady.
The right hon. Lady gave another answer yesterday about the Secretary-General. She said:
“United Nations administration I believe would be carried on with great integrity.”
She was referring to the possibilities of the interim administration.
“I think that we are all lucky to have Mr. de Cuellar as Secretary-General. He is a person himself of great integrity and we have a special relationship with him … because he was head of the United Nations observers at the elections in Rhodesia.”
She went on:
“So he knows we bring colonies to independence. He knows how we arrange things with free elections. He knows that we believe in self determination, and he has seen us at it. So we have special faith in him.”
At the beginning of this week I put it to the right hon. Lady that one of the reasons why I requested this debate and why we should have the documents was not merely that the Government and the House of Commons would demand the right to judge the terms, but, as I said in the letter that I sent to her on Monday, the Secretary-General himself might come forward with proposals at the end to be put to both sides. On Monday I said that I thought that it would be intolerable if, when proposals were coming from the Secretary-General, who knows as much about the intricacies of the negotiations as anyone, we were to go ahead with a great escalation of the conflict without having had the chance to judge what the Secretary-General might propose at the end of the discussions.
[column 488]Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch and Leamington)
If the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) had been Prime Minister, would he have approved the sending of the task force? Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Prime Minister should hand over to the Secretary-General of the United Nations the timing of future negotiations regardless of their outcome? Many of us would find that extremely hard to accept.
Mr. Foot
I am not saying that we should hand it over regardless of the outcome or of the time. The right hon. Lady has insisted on another occasion that there has been no hold up in the military operations because of the discussions. She is now nodding. The right hon. Lady has said many times that there has been no hold up in the military operations because of the discussions. It is a question not of asking for a great deal of time, but of asking for a proper response to what the Secretary-General has to say.
One of the disputes that I had with the right hon. Lady three weeks ago was when the Secretary-General came forward with some suggestions before the Foreign Secretary had had any meetings with him. We said that it would be improper for us to proceed without having the fullest possible discussions with the Secretary-General. That has been repaired in the sense that the Foreign Secretary has had discussions with the Secretary-General.
We have now reached the point at which a breakdown has occurred in the other negotiations, but the Secretary-General believes that the matter is of such supreme importance that, in the words of the right hon. Lady, someone must make an assessment. The Secretary-General has as much right to make an assessment as the Prime Minister or anybody else. The Secretary-General may be listened to in many parts of the world on this subject, and we shall need the support of many countries. I believe that it was a great mistake for the right hon. Lady to say—although I do not suppose it will govern her conduct in future negotiations—that all the proposals that she and her Government had made in the past were now withdrawn. [Hon. Members: “Why not?” ] I will tell hon. Members. It is because we want the Secretary-General to succeed. We want him to be supported. We want to ensure that the Government will give every proper response to the Secretary-General.
I shall make a specific proposal to the right hon. Lady on the subject in a few moments. It is no use hon. Members pushing it aside and saying that we will have nothing to do with what the Secretary-General proposes.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) cannot have heard what I said. The Javier Perez de CuellarSecretary-General has put forward an aide-memoire. I described what we were saying to him. I said that what we were saying to him could not foreclose military options any more than it has in the past. There is his aide-memoire. I do not understand the right hon. Gentleman's point.
Mr. Foot
If the right hon. Lady is now telling us that her response to the Secretary-General is one which she is prepared to follow further at the United Nations, I am in favour of it. I am not quite sure whether a few of her more raucous Back Benchers would support her, but that is another matter. I hope that the right hon. Lady and her Government at such a delicate moment as this, when the command of support throughout the world is of paramount importance, will build on the answer the right hon. Lady [column 489]has just given, that they will build on the response they have already made about the Secretary-General and that they will carry it much further. I hope that, before they take any further action, they will make a much bigger response. I know that the Government have tried on previous occasions to brush aside the Secretary-General, but they have had to come back to him in the end.
The proper course for both the right hon. Lady and the Foreign Secretary is, either tonight or tomorrow, to go to New York and to discuss the matter. That is the proper way in which such discussions should be carried through. If the right hon. Lady wishes to command support in this situation, she must command support through the United Nations Organisation. That means sustaining the Secretary-General in the proposition that he has put before the British Government today.
4.35 p.m.
Dr. David Owen (Plymouth, Devonport)
The House has listened to a very grave speech from the Prime Minister. I do not believe that anyone who listened to it can be in any doubt that we have witnessed a serious attempt to seek a negotiated settlement. That should be said and heard in the rest of the world.
I am pleased that the Leader of the official Opposition was prepared to recognise that the negotiating position adopted by the Government and now before the House and the world is a fair and reasonable one. It ought to be said quite clearly that we support that negotiating position. We recognise that many of us as individuals have had to accept a fair degree of compromise in those proposals. They are not the ideal proposals which each and every one of us in this House would wish to accept.
It is also right that this debate should be heard in the rest of the world. If the Government are advised by the Chiefs of Staff that the task force needs to take further measures to protect itself or further to tighten the military pressure around the invaders on the Falkland Islands, it is reasonable for them to be given the political authorisation to do so. No one is under any illusion that that would be a grave and dangerous step, and nobody wishes to see any loss of life. We would be fools, however, if we thought that we could take such a step without the real possibility of loss of life, Therefore, this is a very sombre moment, and it should be faced in a sombre and steady mood.
I do not believe that the military option that faces the Government is a single option, as we are sometimes led to believe. I do not believe that the only option is a D-Day-like frontal invasion. But we are getting close to the necessity to put a substantial proportion of our forces on to the Falkland Islands. Like many hon. Members, I have been deeply worried over the last few weeks about the possibility that what happened to HMS “Sheffield” , and the tragedy that befell the Argentine cruiser, could happen to any of our ships.
In the light of these negotiations, if the Chiefs of Staff want a decision from the Government such a decision should be taken. I hope that their military judgment will be wisely exercised and their options wisely chosen, and that it will be possible to repossess parts of the islands—a lot of which will not contain any Argentine troops at all—to provide ourselves with an air base, to protect it with Rapier missiles and to have a base on land instead of the rather hazardous base for our aircraft on ships on the high seas. [column 490]
I must say to the Prime Minister that none of that in any way reduces the responsibility to continue the negotiations. None of that in any way reduces the responsibility on us, as a loyal member of the United Nations, to respond to any reasonable request from the Secretary-General. The Secretary-General will face a difficult task. The history of the negotiations does not give ground for optimism. If the Secretary-General is ready to pursue his aide-memoire and to try to reach a negotiated position, we ought to be ready to listen. There has been a lull, although the Prime Minister has said that there has been no period in which there has been a delay in the decisions. All of us who are realistic know that there has been a lull in the fighting. If that fighting increases, it will be one of the pressures.
I hope that when our friends read the negotiating document and the interim proposals, they will recognise the necessity to continue with economic sanctions. I have no doubt that that will be the response of Australia, Canada and New Zealand. I hope that it will be the response of Norway. Although it is not a member of the EEC, it has taken exactly the same measures as the EEC. I profoundly hope that the other nine member States take that decision. If it is not possible to reach a unanimous decision, and if Ireland feels unable to go along with it, I hope that the remaining eight member States will take that decision.
Furthermore, I hope that the United States is prepared to look at its economic sanctions and to take further economic sanctions. If the rest of the countries of the world are asked by us to take economic sanctions which are painful to them and may have adverse economic consequences, we must be prepared to listen to them. They are our friends. They have taken those measures because there is a fellow feeling in the European Community, the Commonwealth and NATO. The message that is coming from those countries now is “We will take further economic sanctions and we recognise why you are driven to tighten the military pressures, but we believe that you must continue to negotiate.”
I hope that the Prime Minister, and the Foreign Secretary when he replies, will reflect upon her answer to my question about the necessity to withdraw and take the proposals from the table. What is the aim and object? Surely the aim and object is not unconditional surrender. History shows that by holding out for unconditional surrender one unnecessarily loses lives. Unconditional surrender is rarely the right position for a strong democratic country to adopt.
Having put down these proposals, which are essentially proposals for a ceasefire, withdrawal and an honourable negotiation, Britain should be strong enough and clear enough in the justice of its cause to keep those propositions on the table. Britain should be prepared to say to the Argentines “If at any time in the next few days or weeks of military and economic pressure you are prepared to have a ceasefire on these terms, we will honour it.” I believe that that is an essential negotiating position.
Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Down, South)
Evacuation.
Dr. Owen
The right hon. Gentleman says “Evacuation” . It is not evacuation. It is a ceasefire and a phased withdrawal. It is a proposal for an interim administration. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has never wanted any of those compromises.
Mr. Powell
It is nonsense.
Dr. Owen
It may be nonsense, but it is a view.
[column 491]Mr. Powell
Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that if we continue with military action, whatever the outcome may be, we should go back to the position of withdrawing our forces, a phased withdrawal of both sides and someone else's administration?
Dr. Owen
The right hon. Gentleman's perception is remarkable: that is exactly what I am saying.
Mr. Powell
Then it is nonsense.
Dr. Owen
The right hon. Gentleman assumes that he has a monopoly of these issues. He has his own view and he is entitled to it, but if we had held to his view there would have been no negotiations and no movement in the Government's position, and we would not have had support from any country. The right hon. Gentleman has always held a view of absolute and total certainty. His position of absoluteness and certainty is very similar to the position of the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn). The reality of life is that most of us are prepared to negotiate and to have a measure of compromise. Most of us are prepared to live in the real world and not in the nationalistic island on which the right hon. Gentleman seems to have impaled himself.
I urge the Prime Minister to look carefully at this issue because it is on this issue that she could lose opinion not just in the House and in the country but in the rest of the world. There must be a readiness to continue the negotiating process.
These proposals are different from the Peruvian proposals. Those proposals were from another Government. They contained elements that were unpalatable to the British and the Argentines. In the document the right hon. Lady said that she was prepared to accept the final Peruvian argument, but, the Argentines having rejected it, she withdrew that offer. That is different from withdrawing the proposals that have been put forward by the British Government. The Prime Minister should look at that issue. She cannot quote some parts of the United Nations charter and ignore others.
The Prime Minister
The David Owenright hon. Gentleman is ignoring what I said in my speech. We gave a full written interim agreement. It was put to the Argentines with two days to reply. They knew what they were doing when they replied within that time limit: they were rejecting the proposals. If we were to enter into negotiations again, they would probably be totally different because they would be on a different basis.
Dr. Owen
If there is a misunderstanding, let us try to clear it up. I am saying not that we should enter into the negotiations on the basis of the document, but that the document is the offer. If in the next few days and weeks, as a result of economic and military pressures, the Argentines accept the document lock, stock and barrel, the Prime Minister should recognise that that is an honourable offer on which it is honourable to ask our forces and Service men to fight. The right hon. Lady should not hold out for a proposition that is as yet unheard of or for unconditional surrender.
The right hon. Lady quoted article 73 of the United Nations charter, which is also quoted in the document. The House should listen to the words of article 74, which also relates to the declaration regarding non-self-governing territories. It states:
“Members of the United Nations also agree that their policy in respect of the territories to which this Chapter applies, no less [column 492]than in respect of their metropolitan areas, must be based on the general principle of good-neighbourliness, due account being taken of the interests and well-being of the rest of the world, in social, economic, and commercial matters.”
We have a wider responsibility. The right hon. Lady knows that if, as I hope, military action is totally successful—let us hope that that is possible, although most of us are more objective than that—what would we face? Are we prepared to face a situation in which we have a military garrison in the Falkland Islands for the next 10 or 20 years, which is within range of Argentine land-based aircraft? Is that what we are being asked to do? We know that at the end of the day there must be negotiations. It must be said now before lives are lost that this country is prepared to negotiate. We are not pursuing a colonial claim. [Interruption.] All I am asking Conservative Members to do is to uphold the proposition tabled at the United Nations by their Government. I ask them to uphold it over the next few weeks and months and to be prepared to recognise that an honourable ceasefire, withdrawal and negotiations can happen on that basis. If the Argentines lose the lives of their soldiers in order to resist this fair document, the rest of the world will judge them hard. If the rest of the world has any doubt as to what we are fighting for, we will jeopardise our position. It is a reasonable request to make to the Prime Minister.
During the past seven weeks, the right hon. Lady has had considerable support from the House and the country. She is entitled to that. But she also has a responsibility as Prime Minister to listen to others and consider the views not just of myself or of my party, but of many other Governments. She knows that what I am saying is a view held by many other people in the world.
We wish the Prime Minister every success. We have given her unstinting support and will continue to do so in the pursuit of honourable objectives. We have not flinched from supporting the negotiating position, the application of economic sanctions, or the use of military force. We shall also not flinch from saying unpopular things if necessary about the need for an honourable negotiating position.