PRIME MINISTER
Trades Union Congress
Q1. Mr. Walter Johnson
asked the Prime Minister when she next expects to meet the general council of the Trades Union Congress.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
I have no immediate plans to do so.
Mr. Johnson
Is the Prime Minister aware that over 12½ million trade unionists are affiliated to the TUC and that, with their families, they represent over half the population of Britain? In the national interest, therefore, will the Prime Minister and her colleagues stop baiting and alienating the trade unions? Will she work with them and with the TUC and try to deal with some of the serious problems, particularly unemployment?
The Prime Minister
If representatives of the TUC ask to see me, of course I shall see them. I have never refused to see them when they have asked to come along together, although rather a lot of them have come along together. This House represents all the people. I work through this House.
Sir William Clark
When my right hon. Friend next sees the general council of the TUC, will she remind it that a massive increase in public expenditure, both revenue and capital, coupled with a massive increase in direct and indirect taxation, will inevitably lead to an increase in the public sector borrowing requirement, probably to between £20 million and £25 million? Does she agree that that would increase the bank rate, increase inflation, increase the cost of mortgages, increase the cost of businesses and [column 258]result in unemployment? Does my right hon. Friend agree that anyone advocating such a course is irresponsible and not fitted to lead a Government?
The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend. One cannot pursue a policy of taxing less and spending more while hoping to make ends meet.
Mr. Bidwell
Is the right hon. Lady aware that Mr. Len Murray, the general secretary of the TUC, insists that when he sees her it is like having a dialogue with the deaf?
The Prime Minister
I had no idea that Mr. Murray was deaf.
President of France
Q2. Mr. Dykes
asked the Prime Minister what recent discussions she has had with the new President of the Republic of France.
The Prime Minister
I met François Mitterrandthe new President of France at the European Council in Luxembourg on 29 and 30 June. As I mentioned in my statement to the House on 1 July, I also had talks with him on the morning of 30 June.
Mr. Dykes
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Notwithstanding the political colour of the new Administration in Paris, and following the friendly encounter that my right hon. Friend had with President Mitterrand, is she more confident that friendly and positive relations between Britain and France will allow us to tackle some of the more serious EEC problems such as those concerning the budget and foreign policy coordination, as well as certain pressing bilateral matters such as the Channel tunnel?
The Prime Minister
It is always good to start on a friendly basis. I do not think that the situation will be much changed when we come to the tough negotiations ahead. Each Head of Government fights his country's corner. France does that, and we do that. In the end, we must arrive at arrangements which are equitable and fair to all partners in the interests of all members of the European Economic Community. That we shall do.
Mr. Heffer
When the right hon. Lady met the President of France, did she take the opportunity to discuss the President's programme for employment prospects and putting the French people back to work? Has she learnt anything from that? May we have an assurance that she will carry out a similar policy here, especially to help areas such as Liverpool with its mass unemployment, which is responsible for the terrible outbreaks of violence in the last few days?
The Prime Minister
With regard to the French programme, the French President is increasing the public deficit from 1½ per cent. to 3 per cent. of gross domestic product. The deficit in this country—the amount that we have to borrow—is already 4½ per cent. of DGP, so even on that programme the French President will be following a pretty conservative policy. With regard to some of the other policy matters, I do not think that the hon. Member would like me to follow them. They include a 7 per cent. value added tax on food and a 17½ per cent. standard rate tax on ordinary goods and materials.
With regard to the hon. Gentleman's remarks about Liverpool, I do not think that anything would condone the violence that took place. One must totally condemn it. [column 259]Unemployment may well be a factor, but I do not believe that it is the principal factor. It may well be a factor. As the hon. Gentleman will have heard in the exchange that took place yesterday when my right hon. Friend William Whitelawthe Home Secretary was answering questions, there were Opposition Members who said that they did not think that unemployment was the main cause.
Mr. Tapsell
Did President Mitterrand refer to his announced plans to increase the amount of French research into higher technology by 50 per cent. over the next five years, from 1.5 per cent. to 2.3 per cent. of their GDP? Is my right hon. Friend aware that that will still leave France far behind Japan, where one company has 10,000 products already in the final stages of research and ready to go into manufacture? In an increasingly competitive world, will my right hon. Friend set in being a study to examine how Britain can improve our own educational training, practical skills and manufacturing capacity in higher technology?
The Prime Minister
The short answer to my hon. Friend is that we did not discuss a particular programme. It was generally agreed between Heads of Government that we must put a good deal of emphasis on the new technological industries. As my hon. Friend knows, in this country we, too, are trying to place special emphasis on the new information technologies and have a programme to try to get a computer in every school by the end of next year. That seems a reasonable start. One is only too anxious to put more into investment, particularly into applied technology. In this country we tend to put rather a lot into pure research and perhaps not sufficient into applied research.
Mr. McNamara
Did the Prime Minister discuss the fishing dispute with the French President? Did she reaffirm the Government's intention to have a 12-mile limit solely for British fishermen and a 50-mile dominant area for British fishermen? What sort of agreement did she reach with President Mitterrand on that?
The Prime Minister
We did not discuss the fishing matter in detail with the President. We made it very clear that it matters a great deal to this country that we get a common fisheries policy as quickly as we can. I had hoped to achieve it before the French elections. I believe that President Mitterrand also wants it for his fishermen, but I believe that there is some quite tough negotiating ahead to achieve what is appropriate, suitable and equitable for the fishermen of both countries.
Mr. Aitken
Did my right hon. Friend get the impression from President Mitterrand that the French Socialist Party is firmly committed to NATO and to the retention of France's independent nuclear deterrent? Is not that an interesting and sharp contrast with the policy of the British Labour Party?
The Prime Minister
The French Government are not fully militarily integrated into NATO. President Mitterrand is fully committed to his independent nuclear deterrent, and I believe that he is fully committed to spending a proper and full amount on the defence of France and, therefore, playing a full part in the Western Alliance.
[column 260]Engagements
Q3. Mr. Kilroy-Silk
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 7 July.
The Prime Minister
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
Mr. Kilroy-Silk
Will the Prime Minister reflect today on that the fact that, whatever were the causes of the riot in Liverpool, the origin was not in racial conflict, as the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) would like to believe? Is she aware that the area is deprived and neglected, not least by herself, as she has persistently refused to visit that city? Is she further aware that she has not visited it since she became Prime Minister and that she also refused to meet representatives of the People's March for Jobs? Will she now visit the area to see at first hand what her policies are doing to young people? Will she order an inquiry into the causes of the disturbance and confirm the Home Secretary's statement to me yesterday that there will be an investigation into the policing of the area and the relationship between the police and the local community?
The Prime Minister
I shall, of course, visit Liverpool rather sooner than I had thought. My right hon. Friend William Whitelawthe Home Secretary is there today. I have already spoken to him. He had some very valuable and constructive meetings this morning with both the metropolitan county authority and the Liverpool council, all of whom praised the police as well as the ambulance and fire services very highly indeed. All of them are anxious to put the terrible events of the last few days behind them and to try to give some hope and improved morale to the area. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there are very big problems. Unemployment is most certainly one of them. My right hon. Friend is well aware of that and so am I. Factories have been closing for quite a long time, even before the general election. We are anxious to take a very constructive approach to the problem and to help all that we can. At an appropriate time, I shall certainly visit the area.
Mr. Garel-Jones
Will my right hon. Friend find time in her busy day to discuss with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary the extraordinary number of people who have put their names forward as candidates in the Warrington by-election? Will she extend that conversation to cover the Representation of the People Act, which is now so full of anomalies as to lay it wide open to those who wish to bring our system into disrepute?
The Prime Minister
I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend gives attention to the needed reforms in the Representation of the People Act, but I do not think that at the moment he will give it the utmost priority as there are a number of other problems in legislation confronting us ahead of that.
Mr. Foot
Reverting to the subject of Liverpool, Southall and the other very serious disturbances which took place, while we fully understand that the Home Secretary had to direct his attention yesterday primarily to the question of how the police could deal with the immediate situation, has the right hon. Lady had time to reflect on the proposal made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) to [column 261]the effect that the present inquiry instituted by the Home Secretary into some of these matters should be greatly extended and should be directed against some of the deeper causes of the deprivation in those areas and what may be the consequences of them?
In view of the way in which mass unemployment among young people contributes to situations of this kind, will the right hon. Lady review every single one of her policies touching on these matters to ensure that all measures calculated to increase that unemployment are put into reverse?
The Prime Minister
With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's comments about inquiring into the causes, I understand that when Lord Scarman has completed his initial inquiry on Brixton he will be looking at other areas. I believe that Liverpool will probably be one of them. That would be the natural thing to do, because it was the worst experience that we have yet had in this country. One is naturally anxious to try to get closer to the causes. In the meantime, however, one's first action must always be to uphold the law and to support the police—not necessarily to find excuses, but to find reasons and first and foremost to uphold the law and support the police. We congratulate the police on the work that they have done.
With regard to other measures to try to combat unemployment, we have indeed been trying to do everything we can in Liverpool. That is exactly why we started an urban development corporation, to try to cut through some of the red tape of working through so many authorities. Even yesterday, we were unable to get an order through the House to pass £17.1 million to the urban development corporation to carry out the initial stages of its task. We have set up an enterprise zone. I am afraid that all this takes time. It takes time because of the legislative procedures and the inquiries that are necessary. We are also putting, and will continue to put, a great deal into the youth opportunities programme. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there is no substitute for genuine jobs. They must come when people buy the goods and services produced here. One cannot get away from that.
Mr. Foot
We shall have to return to the subject of the nature and scale of the inquiry, as the Prime Minister has not yet grasped the general significance of the matter. I wish to ask the right hon. Lady about some of the specific measures that her Government have taken, which have contributed to youth unemployment. I refer, for example, to the cuts she proposes to make in university education. Cuts will be made in grants to Salford university. Does the right hon. Lady think that that is a good policy to pursue when she has such trouble in Liverpool? The same point applies to many other places. As a result of the right hon. Lady's policies, only half the previous number of apprentices are being trained. In addition, her policies have led to the greatest increase in mass youth unemployment that the country has known. Those are the policies for which the right hon. Lady is primarily responsible, as the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) pointed out last week. When will the right hon. Lady change them?
The Prime Minister
As regards finding work experience and training for young people, and some short-time working subsidy, we are spending approximately £1 billion to help people either to keep jobs or to gain some work experience. That is a considerable sum. I agree that [column 262]we would like to have more apprenticeships. However, one of the things we ought to look at is the restriction on entry to apprenticeships. We must also consider why some of those who have been retrained in skillcentres are not allowed a trade union ticket, which means that they cannot get jobs. If the right hon. Gentleman is asking me to give further consideration to what I would call the obstacles to higher employment, I must tell him that we are already looking at things such as the Employment Protection Act and the high wages—in comparison with those paid to older workers—that sometimes have to be paid to young people. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is vital to deal with such matters.
Mr. Foot
rose——
Mr. Dickens
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that you will not wish to—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. This is not the place for any hon. Member to be shouted down. We must allow hon. Members to speak in this Chamber.
Mr. Dickens
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am certain that you must have overlooked the fact that the time is 3.33 pm.
Mr. Speaker
The hon. Gentleman is as helpful as usual—but no more than usual.
Mr. Skinner
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It has been brought to my attention—[Hon. Members: “Oh.” ]—that at a time when this Tory Government are smashing the social fabric of the country—[Hon. Members: “Oh.” ]—with 3 million people unemployed—[Hon. Members: “Oh.” ]—and with social services—[Interruption.]—being——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I want to hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say, but he must have a point of order.
Mr. Skinner
With all those cuts in public expenditure, it has been brought to my attention that you felt it necessary a few days ago, Mr. Speaker, to attend a function at the home of the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley) to raise funds——
Mr. Speaker
Order. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to criticise my conduct, he knows what to do. But he does not do so in the form of a question.
Mr. Skinner
rose——
Mr. Faulds
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When you were very helpfully aided by your popular timekeeper, the Leader of the Opposition was on his feet asking a question. May he be allowed to finish it?
Mr. Skinner
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker——
Mr. Speaker
Order. If the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) wishes to criticise my conduct, he knows what to do. It is not done through a point of order. I tell the hon. Gentleman that I am not dealing with this matter on a point of order.
Mr. Skinner
rose——
Mr. Faulds
rose——
Mr. Speaker
May I say to the hon. Member for Bolsover, for the last time, that this is not a point of order with which—[Interruption.] I am not answerable to the hon. Gentleman at Question Time for what I do at weekends.
[column 263]Mr. Skinner
Raising funds for the Conservative Party.
Mr. Speaker
If the hon. Gentleman persists, I shall require him to leave the Chamber, because I am not going to enter into a personal argument.
Mr. Skinner
rose——
Hon. Members
Name him.
The Lord Privy Seal (Sir Ian Gilmour)
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I have no desire to name the hon. Member for Bolsover, but he is making it very difficult for me not to order him to leave this Chamber. I am not pursuing that subject now. I call the Lord Privy Seal to make a statement.
Sir Ian Gilmour
rose——
Mr. Skinner
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker
If it is a different point of order, I shall take it. If it is the same point of order, I shall require the hon. Gentleman to leave the Chamber for the rest of this day's sitting.
[column 264]Mr. Skinner
I am giving you an opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to tell the House why it was——
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member for Bolsover will leave this Chamber for the rest of this day's sitting.
Mr. Skinner
What for?
Mr. Speaker
If the hon. Gentleman does not leave the Chamber, I shall have no recourse but to name him. The hon. Gentleman will now leave the Chamber for this day's sitting.
Mr. Skinner
I shall raise this somewhere else.
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman will leave the Chamber for the rest of this day's sitting.
The hon. Member, having conducted himself in a grossly disorderly manner, was ordered by Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 23 (Disorderly conduct), to withdraw immediately from the House during the remainder of this day's Sitting, and he withdrew accordingly.