Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

House of Commons PQs

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC [987/1756-63]
Editorial comments: 1515-1530.
Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 2428
Themes: Agriculture, Executive, Union of UK nations, Conservatism, Employment, Monetary policy, Pay, Public spending & borrowing, Taxation, Labour Party & socialism, Law & order, Race, immigration, nationality, Social security & welfare, Trade union law reform
[column 1756]

PRIME MINISTER

(ENGAGEMENTS)

Q1. Mr. Temple-Morris

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 3 July.

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. Later today, I shall leave for a visit to Scotland, and this evening I shall attend a reception given by Her Majesty the Queen at Holyroodhouse to mark the eightieth birthday of the Queen Mother.

Mr. Temple-Morris

Will my right hon. Friend take time today to re-emphasise strongly the recent statement of her Industry Secretary, that as well as pricing themselves out of jobs workers can also price themselves into jobs? Will she congratulate those East Midlands busmen who have sacrificed their overtime pay [column 1757]to preserve the jobs of 50 of their colleagues? Will she agree that if more followed the example of those members of the Transport and General Workers Union, as well as the advice of her right hon. Friend, our economic problems would be more quickly solved?

The Prime Minister

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I agree that the efforts of those East Midlands bus crews were highly commendable and indicated that, in considering their own pay, they were considering its effect, or possible effect, on the unemployment of others. There is not the slightest shadow of doubt that there is a direct relationship between pay increases that go outside money supply and increasing unemployment. I hope that their example will be followed further. It shows, once again, the wisdom of my right hon. Friend Sir Keith Josephthe Secretary of State for Industry.

Mr. Straw

Is the Prime Minister aware that on Tuesday the Chief Secretary to the Treasury told the House that, broadly speaking, pay increases over the last 12 months had had no impact on inflation? Does she agree with her Chief Secretary?

The Prime Minister

I thought that my right hon. Friend John Biffenthe Chief Secretary was in his usual scintillating form. If one reads the speech as a whole, every single part of it can very well be substantiated. The underlying reason for increases in inflation is the money supply in the longer run. In the short run, there are particular reasons for the increase in the retail price index, which is slightly different.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

Will my hon. Friend find time, if possible today, to study the latest CBI survey which shows that manufacturers expect to put up their prices by less than at any time during the last seven years? Can she pass a copy to the Leader of the Opposition just in case he might manage to read it?

The Prime Minister

I did, indeed, notice that report in the survey. It augurs well for a falling rate of inflation in the coming months. I noted that it was supported, in some ways, by an article in the Daily Mirror two days ago that pointed out that the cost-plus era was over, and a very good thing too.

[column 1758]

Mr. James Callaghan

In view of the fact that we all read and listen to the Chief Secretary with reverential attention, can the Prime Minister say clearly whether increases in wages are a cause of inflation or not?

The Prime Minister

Over a period—[Laughter.] Over a period, the cause of increased inflation is increase in the money supply. Within the money supply, there will be a different distribution both between the public sector and the private sector. Within those sectors, there will be increases in pay within the general money supply well beyond what is warranted and those may come through to an increase in particular products in the RPI. That will not necessarily affect the general price level, which is the inflation level.

Mr. Callaghan

May I thank the Prime Minister for that reply and say that I do not understand a word of it?

The Prime Minister

In that case I must remark, in passing, that I wonder who wrote the right hon. Gentleman's speeches when he was in power.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Ivor Stanbrook.

Mr. Stanbrook

rose——

Mr. Callaghan

rose——

Mr. Speaker

Order. If the hon. Member does not mind, I should like to hear the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Callaghan

I do not answer questions here, of course—I only ask them. Is the right hon. Lady aware that not only did I write my own speeches but that they were understood by everybody who heard them?

The Prime Minister

Then the right hon. Gentleman was fortunate in having intelligent listeners.

Mr. Stanbrook

Will my right hon. Friend find time this afternoon to lock again at the wording of clause 17 of the Employment Bill? Is she aware of the growing volume of criticism about the wording of the clause, which is echoed by the president of the Law Society and the leader of the Bar? In those circumstances, what more do the Government require to decide to examine the clause again and to give the House an opportunity to review the wording of the clause?

[column 1759]

The Prime Minister

I am aware of the clause. I agree that it is somewhat complex because it is based on immunities. The law on trade unions has been based on immunities for a long time. The Bill is a first step. It is not a last step.

Mr. David Steel

Is the Prime Minister aware that we are not interested in the scintillating form of the Chief Secretary but in what he says? Does she agree with the specific statement that he made on Tuesday that rising wages in the last 12 months made absolutely no contribution to the rise in inflation?

The Prime Minister

With respect, John Biffenthe Chief Secretary did not precisely say that. My right hon. Friend was dealing with the cause of the underlying increase in inflation and some of the short-term causes. If one reads the whole of his speech one will agree that it is not only scintillating but brilliant in content.

UNEMPLOYED

(ETHNIC MINORITIES)

Q2. Mr. Soley

asked the Prime Minister what steps she is taking to deal with the problem of unemployment for young blacks.

The Prime Minister

We have agreed to the proposals from the Manpower Services Commission to expand the youth opportunities programme by 25 per cent. to over 250,000 places in 1980–81. This expansion has enabled the MSC to renew its undertakings to all unemployed school leavers and all the long-term young unemployed, whether black or white.

Mr. Soley

Does the Prime Minister accept that the rate of unemployment for young blacks is at least twice, and possibly three or four times, as high as that of young whites and that they often work in low-paid jobs and do not appear to be pricing themselves into the market, as is the current silly theory? Therefore, is it not time that the Prime Minister did something effective to ensure that young blacks are not discriminated against in employment?

The Prime Minister

It is right for the youth opportunities programme to apply to all young people, irrespective of colour. In areas with large ethnic minorities some of the schemes under the large youth [column 1760]opportunities programme are arranged and run by the minorities. That seems to be right.

Mr. Whitney

In the light of recent exchanges, will my right hon. Friend take time today to consult again the speech by the Leader of the Opposition——

Mr. Speaker

Order. Does the hon. Gentleman realise that we are considering unemployment among young blacks? An open question is due to be asked shortly.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon

Could the Government give a lead, in relation to discrimination against blacks by insisting that the Taivstock Institute's recommendation about discrimination in the Civil Service is implemented by the Civil Service?

The Prime Minister

I am sure that the Civil Service implements everything which it has to implement and which it is advisable to implement. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular case in mind perhaps he will let us know about it.

Mr. George Gardiner

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the unemployment problems encountered by young blacks are not eased by inflammatory statements from some bodies urging members of the minority communities to withhold co-operation?

The Prime Minister

I entirely agree. It does no one any good to suggest that co-operation with the police should be withheld. I said on Tuesday—and I say it again—that I believe that the vast majority of the coloured community believe firmly in upholding the law and will support the police wholly in their task.

PRIME MINISTER

(ENGAGEMENTS)

Q3. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Prime Minister what are her official engagements for 3 July.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave some time ago.

Mr. Hamilton

In regard to the Prime Minister's impending visit to Scotland, does she recognise that the most important matter there is not the eightieth birthday of anybody—[Hon. Members: [column 1761] “Cheap.” ]—but the escalating unemployment problem? Will she give an assurance that she will pay great attention to the letter that I have sent to her about a firm in my constituency which not only has gone into liquidation but whose directors have disappeared into thin air, leaving at least £40,000 of unpaid wages and holiday pay owing to the people who have been thrown out of their jobs?

The Prime Minister

If the hon. Gentleman has a particular case which causes him great concern, of course I or my right hon. Friends will give it full and proper attention. I agree that the unemployment rate in Scotland is somewhat higher than in England. [Hon. Members: “Somewhat?” ] It is somewhat higher than it is in England. However, the amount of money which goes per head into Scotland, rightly, is greater than that which goes into England, by a considerable amount.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Ray Whitney.

Mr. Whitney

I am most grateful, Mr. Speaker——

Mr. Cryer

The hon. Gentleman has been called twice.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman was not allowed by me to ask his earlier question and that is why I have called him.

Mr. Whitney

In the light of exchanges five minutes ago, will my right hon. Friend find time today to consult yet again a speech delivered to the Labour Party conference in 1976—although I am not sure whether it was written by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) or his son-in-law? Is my right hon. Friend aware that in that speech the right hon. Gentleman stated that the reason for the steady rise in unemployment was that we had continued to pay ourselves more than the value of the goods that we produced.

The Prime Minister

I remember that speech well because it pointed out that we could not spend our way out of inflation and that if we tried to it would lead to higher unemployment.

Mr. Arthur Davidson

Since the Secretary of State for Industry is obsessed with the need for workers to take wage [column 1762]cuts and since the Chief Secretary seems to think that that has no impact on inflation, who is right?

The Prime Minister

On this side we are all right.

4. Mr. Beith

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 3 July.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave earlier.

Mr. Beith

Will the Prime Minister find time today to check up on the trawler which she launched in the Lowestoft constituency two years ago and which is now up for sale, along with most of the rest of the British fishing fleet? Will she take serious account of the representations made to her right hon. Friend this morning?

The Prime Minister

There was a meeting, as the hon. Gentleman knows, with my right hon. Friend this morning and I am sure that he will take fully into account the representations that were made and will press ahead as far and as soon as he can in seeking agreement on a common fisheries policy which will be suitable for the fishermen of this country.

Mr. Ralph Howell

Does my right hon. Friend agree that a great number of the unemployed simply cannot afford to work because of our chaotic taxation and welfare system? May I ask my right hon. Friend if she recalls the work done by the Centre for Policy Studies which published realistic figures of those who wanted to work? What has happened to those figures? Why are they no longer published? I believe that they would prove that less than half of the unemployed want to work at the present time.

The Prime Minister

I know very well the excellent work which my hon. Friend has done on this subject and I agree with him that one of the problems is that there is not a sufficient gap between what one can earn at the bottom end of the wage scale and the amount which can be taken out in benefits which are, sometimes, not liable to tax by those people who are not in work. I agree that we have not yet sorted out that problem, but I ask my hon. Friend to give us [column 1763]some credit for the fact that we are trying to do that and that within two years we shall bring unemployment and sickness benefit into taxation. In so far as they are added to other income, that will go some way towards dealing with the problem.