PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q1. Mr. Adley
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 22 November.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be having further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including one with the Prime Minister of the Yemen Arab Republic. This evening I shall be attending the diplomatic reception at Buckingham Palace.
Mr. Adley
Turning my right hon. Friend's attention from the activities of Comrade Blunt to those of Comrade Robinson, may I ask whether she agrees that the activities of those who foment political strikes in this country are a cause for national concern? Will she do her best to encourage an early debate on this aspect of the nation's security?
The Prime Minister
Of course we are all worried about the number of strikes, because they cut down our prospects of trade, both at home and abroad, and they put up prices. Indeed, they are very damaging to the economy. I believe that we may have the opportunity for an economic debate some time in the near future, when perhaps that aspect can be debated, along with more strictly economic matters.
Mr. John Home Robertson
Will the Prime Minister instruct her Ministers to have the courage of their convictions when it comes to snatching milk or hijacking school buses? Why do they persist in trying to pass the buck to local authorities?
[column 554]The Prime Minister
I rather thought that hon. Members in many parts of the House wished that local authorities had more control over decisions relating to matters in their own areas. We are giving them greater freedom of decision on transport and on school meals.
Mr. Lawrence
Bearing in mind the Prime Minister's remarks yesterday concerning her surprise that anyone with Marxist views should have been accepted to do secret work in the public service, is she now satisfied that there are not Marxist groups or individuals in the public service who are in a position to do harm to the national interest? Will she maintain continual vigilance in this regard?
The Prime Minister
We shall, of course, maintain continual vigilance. As I think I said in my speech yesterday, no system is absolutely foolproof against penetration, but we have security services to keep us warned of these things, among others.
Mr. James Callaghan
I should like to ask the Prime Minister about mortgage interest rates. Will she tell us why she has not on this occasion intervened with the building societies to keep down their rates, as she did last time? As the Conservative manifesto clearly told us that the Government's plan would enable building societies to lower interest rates, will she tell us what has gone wrong with her financial policy?
The Prime Minister
It has occurred to me that the right hon. Gentleman might ask that question. [Hon. Members: “Answer.” ] As the right hon. Gentleman knows, interest rates are at this level because too many people want to borrow. [Interruption.] If the Opposition do not realise that, they will never get their economics right. I recognise that the Government are borrowing too much. An interesting correlation is that when the Government borrow less—as the previous Labour Government did under the instructions of the IMF and the borrowing requirement went down—interest rates go down. I shall be delighted to have the support of the right hon. Gentleman and those who sit behind him to get down Government spending and borrowing, because interest rates will then go down.
[column 555]Mr. Callaghan
Despite that long answer, I do not think that the right hon. Lady answered my question. The right hon. Lady's manifesto said that the Conservatives would get mortgage interest rates down because their tax cuts would help people to raise deposits for mortgages. What has gone wrong with all this business? Would the right hon. Lady care to circulate that extract from the Conservative manifesto and explain to the people of this country that she was conning them at the general election?
The Prime Minister
I did answer the right hon. Gentleman's question. It was just that he did not like my answer. If he would like more of a reply, I must tell him that the other factor in keeping up interest rates is the private sector borrowing to put up wage rates. The right hon. Gentleman must not run away with the idea that interest rates are determined only by the Government. They are determined by the activities of ordinary men and women demanding wages in excess of output and then striking and requiring companies to borrow to keep going.
Mr. Callaghan
Why does not the right hon. Lady admit that her policy is a ghastly failure?
The Prime Minister
Because it is not.
Mr. Thompson
Will my right hon. Friend take time today to discuss with both the Archbishop of Canterbury—[Hon. Members: “Reading.” ]—and the Archbishop of Westminster and others the serious plight of all Christians in Iran?
The Prime Minister
I need hardly stress how worried we all are about events in Iran and certain events in Islamic countries elsewhere. I hope that the whole world will demonstrate its view that these matters are no part of a civilised society.
Mr. David Steel
Returning to today's meeting of the Building Societies Association, what answer will the Prime Minister give to the building societies if they remind her of her pledge, given when she was Shadow Secretary of State for the Environment, that a Conservative Government would take action to protect the mortgage rate from the market rates of interest by intervening to keep them below 9½ per cent? Will she tell them what [column 556]action she will take, or will she simply tell them, as the rest of us are aware, that her show is slipping?
The Prime Minister
As I have told the right hon. Gentleman before, and as I remind him now, we fought and lost an election on that one. It was not, in fact, in the manifesto on the last occasion. If the right hon. Gentleman is asking why we do not now intervene by lending money to the building societies to keep down the mortgage interest rate, I should point out that that is a possible course of action only at the beginning of a financial year, when the money can be returned before the end of the financial year. The right hon. Gentleman always tries to run away from facts. One problem is the level of public expenditure. It would not be wise, when trying to get it down, to take action that would put it up substantially.
WOKINGHAM
Q2. Mr. van Straubenzee
asked the Prime Minister whether she has any plans to visit Wokingham.
The Prime Minister
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. van Straubenzee
In the meanwhile, without paying a visit, will the Prime Minister satisfy herself that the land strategy of the Department of the Environment for the whole of the South-East is correct, requiring as it does the release of an additional 1,000 acres of building land in Central Berkshire? Is not the strategy to stimulate economy and activity in the North, not necessarily in the overcrowded South, so that, when we do welcome my right hon. Friend, we can show her not only our thriving built-up areas but the surrounding country areas?
The Prime Minister
I know that there has been a great deal of development in my hon. Friend's constituency and that he is naturally worried by the proposed further development revealed in the structure plan. I know, too, that he has put his views vigorously to Michael Heseltinemy right hon. Friend. I confirm that the strategy is to persuade more firms to go particularly to areas in the North, but there are areas in the centres of cities that require more businesses either to stay or to open.
[column 557]FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
Q3. Mr. Foulkes
asked the Prime Minister if she will consider appointing a member of the House of Commons as Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary.
The Prime Minister
No, Sir.
Mr. Foulkes
Will the Prime Minister accept that this is a criticism not of individuals—[An Hon. Member: “It should be.” ] That is for another occasion—but of an arrangement whereby one of her principal Cabinet Ministers is not answerable to the elected House of Commons? Will she bear that in mind when making her Cabinet reshuffle, which, in view of the collapse of her economic and industrial policy, is clearly imminent?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman overlooks the fact that we have in this House an excellent Cabinet Minister answerable for foreign affairs.
Mr. Latham
Is not Lord Carrington deserving of the thanks of the whole country for his superb handling of the Rhodesian negotiations?
The Prime Minister
I warmly endorse my hon. Friend's congratulations. I hope that both sides at the Lancaster House conference will soon come to an agreement on a ceasefire, because that is the only way that we can go ahead and obviate some of the difficulties that now obtain in Zambia and in infiltration across the border into Rhodesia.
Mr. Shore
Referring precisely to those difficulties, and in view of the serious attacks that were made on Zambia yesterday and earlier this week, will the Prime Minister tell the House whether she has had any further exchanges with the President of Zambia and whether any direct representations have been made to the Southern Rhodesia authorities that they cease these wrecking attacks at this crucial stage?
The Prime Minister
Yes. I spoke to President Kaunda on the telephone a short time ago and said that at 4 o'clock this afternoon, when we have a plenary session at Lancaster House, we would be putting forward proposals for the ceasefire and asking both sides to constrain themselves—the one not to make attacks into [column 558]Zambia, and the other to cease infiltration across the Zambian border into Rhodesia. If we can get those undertakings from both sides we shall have a chance of getting through to a ceasefire agreement.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q4. Mr. Ancram
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 November.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave earlier.
Mr. Ancram
Will my right hon. Friend take time today to consider the implications of the miners' ballot? Does she agree that their demands create grave difficulties for many elderly people who use coal for heating, let alone threatening to price British coal out of the home market and putting their own jobs at risk as well?
The Prime Minister
I am always concerned about high wage rates. They can be justified only if we get much higher output. Otherwise, the difference is bound to result in increased prices. That would have an adverse effect on the amount of coal that people could buy or the amount of electricity that they could afford, and some of them would undoubtedly go cold. However, we cannot put up the cash limit to the National Coal Board. Beyond that, we must leave the negotiation of wages to the union and the chairman of the NCB.
Mr. Harry Ewing
Is the right hon. Lady in favour of the National Union of Mineworkers putting the issue to the ballot, or is she not? We have always gained the impression that the Prime Minister is in favour of ballots.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman already knows the answer. Yes, I am in favour of ballots. That will be part of our policy when we present the relevant Bill to the House before Christmas.
Mr. Peter Bottomley
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be wise for the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers to announce at each stage of their negotiations the implications of the pay deal for the prices of coal and electricity?
[column 559]The Prime Minister
I agree with my hon. Friend that we should know the price consequences of wage deals, and preferably before they are made. If increased wages are covered by increased output, the increased wages are earned.
Mr. Bidwell
May I remind the right hon. Lady that when she entered 10 Downing Street for the first time as Prime Minister she said that she stood for the creation of harmony in our land? May I ask her to use her good offices to bring about a ceasefire in Leyland management's victimisation and sacking of Mr. Robinson? Is the right hon. Lady aware that Mr. Robinson represents many people who normally do not share his views, including many Tory voters at the general election? Is she also aware that they will not stand for the victimisation of a man who is merely putting a contrary view to the management?
The Prime Minister
It is not for politicians to try to take over the management of public sector industries—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order.
The Prime Minister
It is not for politicians to take over the management——
Mr. Robert C. Brown
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely it is wrong that the Prime Minister should seek to mislead the House and the country——
Mr. Speaker
Order. That cannot possibly be a point of order.
Mr. Robert C. Brown
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. We normally take points of order later in the afternoon. I ask the hon. Gentleman to wait till then.
The Prime Minister
It is not for politicians to take over the management of public sector industry. The previous Government happened to put in a very good manager at British Leyland. We must leave the management of British Leyland to him.