LADYWOOD
Q1. Mr. Sever
asked the Prime Minister when she expects next to visit Ladywood.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
I have no plans to do so, but I visited Birmingham last Friday.
Mr. Sever
Does the right hon. Lady agree that when she visited Birmingham on Friday it would have been in the better interests of the city if she had had consultations with public representatives, community leaders and others who are desperately concerned about the future of Birmingham's inner city partnership scheme, rather than swanning around presenting awards to press men and photographers?
The Prime Minister
I happen to think that the press is a rather important part of a free society. I was pleased that the Lord Mayor of Birmingham was there, too.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q2. Mr. Dubs
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 24 July.
[column 342]The Prime Minister
In addition to duties in this House I shall have meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including one with General Rogers, the new Supreme Allied Commander Europe.
Mr. Dubs
Will the right hon. Lady find time today to consider answering a question that she has failed to answer three times in the House in recent weeks, namely, what comfort is there for the many thousands on housing waiting lists in the light of her Government's policy to encourage sales of council housing when those on the waiting lists cannot afford to buy the houses that might be on offer?
The Prime Minister
I think that the hon. Gentleman is trying to find a connection between two things that are not connected. There are many, many people in council houses who will be tenants for life, who will never move, and who want to own the homes they will live in for the rest of their lives. They will be given an opportunity, which they would never have had under Labour, to purchase their homes.
Mr. Alan Clark
Will my right hon. Friend find time today, or at the earliest opportunity, to deny categorically the reports that are becoming increasingly current that defence is also to have its expenditure cut?
The Prime Minister
If I am to deny or confirm each and every question that is put to me on public expenditure, I shall be in considerable difficulty. We shall, of course, honour our NATO commitments.
Mr. James Callaghan
On the question of the opportunity that is to be given to council house tenants to buy their houses, will the right hon. Lady deny the proposal made by one of her advisers that mortgage interest relief is to be disallowed for tax purposes?
The Prime Minister
I am delighted to deny it. One's advisers are not always right, and I often tell them so.
Mr. Dykes
Will my right hon. Friend have the opportunity this afternoon to check whether she has yet received a response from the Transport and General Workers Union to the enormous concern that was expressed in the House a week or more ago that several speakers at its [column 343]most recent conference who wanted to support the Government's proposals for trade union reform were denied the opportunity of going to the rostrum to speak? If my right hon. Friend has a chance to check to ascertain whether a response has been made, will she take up the matter further with the union? Is she confident that we shall get a fair hearing from trade union leaders, when that sort of thing goes on?
The Prime Minister
I shall look into that later today. I am certain that we have the support of many members of the Transport and General Workers Union, and of other unions, in what we are trying to do to reform trade union law.
Mr. Freud
Will the right hon. Lady consider with care the letter delivered to 10 Downing Street by representatives of 3,500 marchers of Equity, pointing out that the VAT rate of 15 per cent. and the annual contribution of 45p per head compare pretty miserably with £7.80 per head and zero rated VAT in other European countries for the living arts?
The Prime Minister
I think the hon. Gentleman will accept that the substantial reductions in direct taxation will enable many private people to contribute to the arts who have not been able to do so before, and that that will be of great benefit to many in Equity.
Mr. Bidwell
Will the right hon. Lady concede that she might have been badly advised about the contemplated changes in the immigration rules, and that if she goes ahead with them after the recess she many be brought before the European Court of Human Rights on the matter of women and families?
The Prime Minister
Those changes in the immigration rules were set out in detail in the manifesto. We intend to bring them in after we return from the recess.
Q3. Mr. Garel-Jones
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 24 July.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave a moment ago.
Mr. Garel-Jones
In the course of her busy day, will my right hon. Friend find time to ask her hon. Friend the Minister of State for Housing and Construction to [column 344]speed up the preparation of the housing Bill? More important, can she give an assurance that the right of council tenants to purchase will be enshrined in that Bill in such a way as to make it impossible for Labour-controlled authorities to deny tenants that right?
The Prime Minister
That is most certainly our objective. We shall need to do that. Otherwise, many Labour authorities would deny tenants that right. We are determined that they shall have it.
Mr. Alton
Will the right hon. Lady apply the same strictures to the Conservative-controlled authorities that may not wish to sell council houses, especially in the rural areas? Will she reconsider the Government's proposals to make the sale of council houses compulsory? Will she extend to the sale of council dwellings the same logic that she extended in the Education Bill to allowing local authorities the choice of making up their minds about whether they should continue with selective education?
The Prime Minister
If one applied the reasoning behind the hon. Gentleman's question, there would be no fundamental laws governing every citizen in the United Kingdom. If one applied his reasoning to education, we should not have a law about the school starting or leaving ages. Some things are so fundamental that they must apply to all citizens regardless of the local authority area in which they live. Others are matters for the local authorities. We believe that the right to buy council houses should belong to everyone, with one or two possible exceptions, such as some houses in national parks and tied houses. In general, the right should apply to everyone. That is the line that we shall follow in the legislation.
Mr. William Hamilton
Will the Prime Minister reconsider the answer that she gave to the Leader of the Opposition about mortgage interest repayments? How does she square that answer on the favourable treatment given to those people and the slashing of housing subsidies to council houses, which will inevitably put up the rents by about £2 a week?
The Prime Minister
As far as I remember, council house rents meet only about 43 per cent.—it might be a little more; it is well below 50 per cent.—of the cost of council houses. [column 345]
As to mortgage relief, every time tax is reduced the mortgage costs more. The amount upon which the relief is given—£25,000—has not been put up for five years.
Mr. Chapman
As to Government spending cuts—announced, proposed, or the figment of many people's imaginations—will my right hon. Friend confirm that this year's total public expenditure will be no less than £11 billion more than it was last year? Should not these so-called cuts be seen for what they are—an attempt to cut back profligate Government spending?
The Prime Minister
The level of planned expenditure of the previous Government would very rapidly have led us back to where we were in 1976 when the IMF had to be called in and when even the previous Government had to impose public expenditure cuts. It is important that we reduce public expenditure as a proportion of the total national income. Our task at the moment is to constrain it.
Mr. James Callaghan
Is the right hon. Lady aware that what she said in the first part of her answer was totally untrue? As to the second part, does she not recognise that if there is no growth in the economy the burden of public expenditure will become greater? When will she apply her mind to the present absurdly high interest rates, which require industry to curb its investment and are dragging in foreign money, which itself increases the value of sterling and depresses exports? When will she get round to these fundamental problems of growth?
The Prime Minister
In the autumn of 1976 the right hon. Gentleman said, on the question of cutting public expenditure, that it ought to be reduced over a period as a proportion of GDP. That is exactly what we are trying to do. It was reduced. The IMF comes in later. The IMF letter of intent said that.
“an essential element of the Government's strategy will be a continuing and substantial reduction over the next few years in the share of resources required for the public sector. It is also essential to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement” ,
and so on. It lies ill in the right hon. Gentleman's mouth to criticise us for doing now what he had to do when the IMF was called in.
[column 346]Mr. Callaghan
Will the Prime Minister now answer my question? When will she deal with these absurdly high interest rates?
The Prime Minister
I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I forgot the third part of his question.
The right hon. Gentleman knows that interest rates will have to remain high while there is such a tremendous amount for borrowing from both the clearing and other banks. If by any chance it were let go it would have a bad effect on inflation next year. Denis HealeyThe previous Chancellor was much more of a monetarist than he now cares to admit. I am determined that we shall keep down inflation. Until demand is reduced we cannot reduce interest rates. We shall do so at the first opportunity.
Mr. Callaghan
In view of the consequences of the foreign money now attracted to London by these high interest rates, and the consequential effect on the strength of sterling, how many bankruptcies does the right hon. Lady expect that there will be and how much unemployment must we see before she sees sense on this absurdly high level of interest rates?
The Prime Minister
The level of interest rates is below the record achieved by the right hon. Gentleman in office.
Mr. Callaghan
I realise that the right hon. Lady is having a difficult time about this matter, but will she undertake to ensure that the present level of interest rates will last no longer than the level of interest rates to which she referred under the Labour Government?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman knows that we can never, never, never give any undertaking on interest rates. If he were at this Dispatch Box he would say exactly the same.
Mr. Callaghan
Why make the comparison?
SCOTLAND
(CONSTITUTIONAL PROPOSALS)
Q4. Mr. Dalyell
asked the Prime Minister if she will make a statement on the progress of the all-party talks on new constitutional proposals for Scotland.
[column 347]The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend Norman St. John Stevasthe Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has had preliminary discussions about all-party talks with those parties represented in Scotland and hopes to put proposals about terms of reference to those concerned in the autumn.
Mr. Dalyell
Which member of the Cabinet will be in charge of the talks on the Government side?
The Prime Minister
Norman St. John StevasThe Leader of the House will be in charge, as he has been in charge of the all-party consultations.
Mr. McQuarrie
When the talks reach an appropriate stage, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a considerable desire among the people of Scotland to listen to these talks in public? Will she take steps to ensure that they are so held? May we also make use of the buildings and grounds on which the crowd on the other side spent so many millions of pounds?
The Prime Minister
I think that there might be an occasion for due reticence on this matter when the talks begin. But we hope to establish a Select Committee on Scottish affairs when we return from the recess.
Mr. Robert Hughes
Will the right hon. Lady accept that any talks she may have in Scotland will be most unwelcome, given that she has now reneged entirely on the dispersal of Civil Service jobs? How can we trust the Government in any way at all?
The Prime Minister
I hope that there will be a statement later in the week on the dispersal of jobs. [Interruption.] What is on the tapes is not always accurate.
Mr. Winnick
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for the fact that I did not give you warning of my intended point of order, but I was not to know what was to occur during exchanges at Question Time. As you may know, the press is full of reports that the Government have agreed to spending cuts in the region of £4,000 million. It was reported in The Daily Telegraph today that
“The Cabinet did not feel that the situation justified making a statement to MPs before the Commons rises on Friday for the Summer Recess.”
[column 348]
These cuts—if it is true that they are to be made—will affect adversely many of our constituents, and will undoubtedly cause a great deal of hardship. We are going into recess until late October. A number of people will obviously be given details of what is proposed, but not this House. I believe—hence my point of order—that the House is being treated with contempt by the Government in sending us away until late October without giving us details of what is being proposed.
Mr. Speaker
That is not a matter for me but it is something that could be raised in the debate when we discuss the length of the Adjournment.
Mr. Winnick
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. If I may——
Mr. Speaker
Order. It was not a point of order. If the hon. Gentleman has something entirely different to say, I shall listen to him, but that was not a point of order.
Mr. Winnick
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to make my point as briefly as I can, because I believe it to be of great importance. It is that on a matter which concerns our constituents, we are not to be given the information before we break up for the Summer Recess.
Mr. Speaker
That is not a point of order for me, as the House understands.