TUC
Q1. Mr. Tebbit
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the leaders of the TUC.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I meet representatives of the TUC from time to time, at NEDC and on other occasions. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.
Mr. Tebbit
Is the Prime Minister aware that on Tuesday the Secretary of State for Employment said that there were no sanctions available to the Government against the TUC despite that organisation's 21 per cent. pay rise? Is he aware that the Government pay the TUC £1 million a year to train shop stewards—I suppose to start strikes at Fords—and that the general council of the TUC has 180 quango posts between it? Why not axe that lot?
The Prime Minister
I am aware of those factors, but I still do not think that it would be sensible to take action in the way that the hon. Gentleman describes—[Hon. Members: “Why not?” ]—As I understand it, the Opposition are interested in why not. That is because I make my point and the Government take their action to control inflation, whereas the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) presses his case merely to make a political point.
Mr. Madden
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the closure of Times Newspapers Limited from midnight tonight is a matter of grave concern to the TUC printing industries committee? Is he prepared to make a direct approach to the management to persuade it to lift the closure threat and to allow full negotiations to proceed in a proper fashion?
The Prime Minister
I know that my hon. Friend has been making a number of [column 691]representations in his anxiety to try to get the closure stopped. I am grateful to him for the letter that he wrote. I have consulted the Secretary of State for Employment to ascertain whether any intervention would be valuable. As far as my right hon. Friend can, he will be reporting to the House later this afternoon in the emergency debate that has been arranged.
Mrs. Thatcher
Bearing in mind that James Callaghanthe Prime Minister has already decided to impose sanctions on the Ford 17 per cent. settlement and that British Leyland workers are today voting on a wage offer of 17 per cent., will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he proposes to treat the two companies in the same way?
The Prime Minister
Yes, of course the two companies will be treated the same. I am not sure that the headlines contained in the newspapers exactly represent the offer. I do not know whether it has occurred to the right hon. Lady, in her anxiety about the matter, that it has always been part of the White Paper provisions that genuine productivity deals are allowed. I understand from the proposals that have been put forward and that will be examined that the offer made by Leyland's contains a substantial and important productivity element.
Mrs. Thatcher
The Prime Minister will recollect that that was the argument on the part of Fords. Is the right hon. Gentleman still saying that with two major car companies each settling at 17 per cent. he proposes to treat them dif-and in the other case he advised Government Departments not to buy cars because the company settled at 17 per cent. and in the other cases he advises Government Departments to buy cars because the other company settled at 17 per cent.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Lady's questions show how important it is for her to be extremely careful about the facts before she stirs up unnecessary industrial trouble. If she examines the make-up of the pay claims she will see that there are a number of elements in the Leyland settlement that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment will consider. The treatment will be exactly the same. I suggest that at some time when the right hon. Lady asks a question she indicates that she is in favour of Government action to try to keep prices [column 692]down. When she says that she will be more in tune with the views of the British people.
Mrs. Thatcher
I entirely agree that we require Government action to keep prices down. Indeed, I regard 8 per cent. inflation as a disgrace. One of the reasons that we cannot go into Europe is that the Prime Minister is not prepared to take the requisite action to get it down further, as some of our partners in Europe are.
The Prime Minister
I am much obliged to the right hon. Lady for echoing the words that I have used, although I do not think that I have ever used the word “disgrace” . I think that 8 per cent. is too high. I am very glad indeed to see that the right hon. Lady is a sinner come to repentance. I recall that when she and her Administration left office, inflation was twice as high and was going up. Now it has come down.
VIENNA
Q2. Mr. Penhaligon
asked the Prime Minister if he will seek to pay an official visit to Vienna.
The Prime Minister
I have at present no plans to visit Vienna—to my regret.
Mr. Penhaligon
But has the Prime Minister studied the recent Austrian referendum on nuclear power? Will he take this opportunity to reiterate the Government's promise that a public inquiry will be held into a fast-breeder reactor if an application to build another one is made? Furthermore, will he extend that public relations exercise to a genuine one——
Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) must relate his question to Vienna. We are not on the broad issue of policy here. Open questions come later. This Question is about a visit to Vienna.
Mr. Penhaligon
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Austrians held a referendum on the question of nuclear power.
Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member for Truro was referring to something in this country, I believe.
The Prime Minister
May I say to the hon. Member for Truro, if it will help him, that I shall be very glad indeed to [column 693]pay an official visit to Vienna. He might care to come with me and see what success a Labour Government have in that country.
Several Hon. Members
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Mr. Lamond. The question must relate to Vienna.
Mr. James Lamond
Has my right hon. Friend noticed that the proposals tabled by the Soviet Union at the Vienna talks on 8th June of this year have not yet been replied to? Since the Foreign Office described them as very constructive two or three months ago, does not my right hon. Friend think that it is time we took some initiative, especially as he spoke so strongly about the necessity to advance these talks, when speaking at the Special Session of the United Nations?
The Prime Minister
There, is unfortunately, always a long interval between the replies that Governments make to each other at these international conferences. The Soviet Union took rather a long time to reply to the propositions that the West had put forward. One of the basic difficulties here is that the Soviet Union insists that in the central area of Europe manpower is roughly the same on both sides. That proposition is not accepted by the West. We believe that Soviet armed manpower is far larger than that of the West, and we have to try to get the data right before we can get further on negotiations.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q3. Mrs. Hayman
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 30th November.
The Prime Minister
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mrs. Hayman
Will my right hon. Friend try to find time today to study the question of the declining trend in this country's perinatal mortality rates over the past 25 years in relation to other European nations? Will he look at what can be done to reverse this [column 694]disturbing trend, particularly in relation to improving neo-natal services within the National Health Service?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for informing me of a matter in which she is particularly interested. The perinatal mortality rate has come down substantially in this country. It varies against the rate in a number of European countries. It is higher than some but lower than others. The Minister could give my hon. Friend a table if she wished to see it.
The most worrying factor is the discrepancy between the regions of this country. Mortality seems to be highest in the areas of great industrial conurbations and lowest in the more rural areas. This undoubtedly reflects differences in the environment, and it is to that, as well as to diet and other matters, that we must pay attention.
Mr. Michael Latham
Reverting to the question of sanctions and Ford's, will the Prime Minister explain why it was, in the words of Ministers, not appropriate to have sanctions on Ford 12 months ago, whereas it is appropriate now? Could it be related to the Bridgend factory?
The Prime Minister
No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman knows that that is a smear that is hardly worthy of him. But I suppose the real answer must be that the reason we started on it this year is that we were converted by the complaints of the Opposition last year that we had not taken action against Ford's.
Mr. Pavitt
Reverting to the question of perinatal mortality, will my right hon. Friend seek to co-ordinate the efforts in the inner city areas and the efforts of the Department of Health and Social Services in areas where there are large ethnic minorities, in order to assist what is now being done concerning languages to help the mothers concerned?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has sent to the regional chairmen of the health authorities details of the perinatal mortality rates in their areas. He has asked them to continue to look at these matters with a view to putting forward specific policies for improvement in the areas which are worst affected. This is a serious issue. We are not doing [column 695]as well as some other countries, although we have had a substantial improvement. We should certainly ask the health authorities to make this a priority matter.
Mr. Watt
Will one of the ministerial colleagues that the Prime Minister says he will be meeting today be the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? If so, will the Prime Minister assure that gentleman that he is firmly behind him in his stand to make sure that the fishermen get a decent deal from the EEC?
The Prime Minister
Yes. I fortunately met my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at the Cabinet meeting this morning. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Minister is in good and rude health.
Dr. M. S. Miller
Reverting once again to the question of perinatal mortality rates, will the Prime Minister be very chary about accepting statistics in this respect? We in this country are very accurate in the statistics that we put forward, and other countries might not be making comparisons on exactly the same basis as ourselves.
The Prime Minister
This is one of the things that I was warned about. I was informed that the league table approach to national performance is somewhat misleading. But at least it is a guide. I think that the best guide for us, for which we can at least claim some credit, is that since the introduction of the Health Service in 1948—and all our statistics are prepared on the same basis—the number of deaths per 1,000 live and still births has gone down from 38.5 per 1,000 to 17 per 1,000. That is a tribute to the work of the Health Service.
Mr. Churchill
The Prime Minister has spoken of the importance of productivity deals. Will he say what steps he and his Administration are taking to monitor existing productivity deals, and in particular in the case of the miners? As the Prime Minister well knows, this year the miners received a 36.5 per cent. pay increase. Will he explain what action he proposes to take in the light of the fact that less than one-tenth of that sum has been earned in increased productivity?
The Prime Minister
I do not propose to go into this matter myself. If the hon. Gentleman has any questions to put to my [column 696]right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy, no doubt he will do so. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not pursue the vendetta of his family against the miners—[Interruption.]—at Tonypandy for the third generation.
Hon. Members
Cheap!
Mr. Speaker
Order. Mr. Noble.—[Interruption.] Order. Mr. Mike Noble, next Question.
Mr. Churchill
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. Will the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) wait until after Questions? [Interruption.] Order. It will not be long. We shall return to it after Questions. Mr. Mike Noble—next Question.
Mr. Noble
Question No. Q5 to the Prime Minister.
The Prime Minister
rose—[Interruption.]
Hon. Members
Cheap!
Mr. Churchill
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I have already said that the hon. Member for Stretford will have an opportunity to raise a point of order after Questions. The Prime Minister.
The Prime Minister
rose—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. Even when hon. Members feel indignant, they must—[Hon. Members: “Dishonourable.” ] Order. We must try to keep to the rules of order. The Prime Minister will answer this Question and then we shall have points of order after the supplementary question. [Interruption.] Order. It is impossible to conduct our affairs if hon. Members do not listen to the Chair when I make a request. We shall come back to that matter shortly.
Later——
Mr. Speaker
Mr. Winston Churchill, to raise a point of order.
Mr. Churchill
Mr. Speaker, would it be in order for the Prime Minister to withdraw his wholly false smear accusation against my late grandfather, whose vendetta was against not the miners, but the Nazis?
[column 697]Hon. Members
Withdraw.
Mr. Speaker
Business Question. Mrs. Thatcher.
Mr. Whitelaw
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think, on reflection, that it would be sensible and wise to withdraw a cheap and totally unnecessary slur?
The Prime Minister
The actions of the late Sir Winston Churchill in Tonypandy are a matter of historical dispute. I take one side of the quarrel. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman takes another side of that quarrel. I can only tell him what we in South Wales feel about the actions that were taken on that occasion.
I hope that the hon. Member for Streetford (Mr. Churchill) will not pursue a vendetta against the miners.
Mr. Brittan
That was not what you said.
The Prime Minister
The hon. and learned Gentleman is right. That was not what I said. The hon. Gentleman knows very well what I said. I am asking the hon. Gentleman not to pursue a vendetta against the miners of South Wales or anywhere else, and by the nature of his questions he appears to be doing so.
Mr. Churchill
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister is seeking to advance a hoary old chestnut of Socialism by suggesting that the late Sir Winston Churchill sent troops to Tonypandy when the right hon. Gentleman should very well know that it was Sir Winston Churchill who detrained them at Didcot and sent instead policemen from the Metropolis. It was completely unjustifiable for the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that the late Sir Winston Churchill sent troops, which was the implication behind his remarks.
Mr. Kinnock
rose——
Mr. Heffer
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I am not taking any further points of order on that matter. The hon. Member for Stretford has had the last word.
Several Hon. Members
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. If those who seek to raise points of order after I have [column 698]already said that I do not propose to take further points of order on this matter feel that they can be helpful and not stir up trouble—[Interruption.] Order. I know that it is a matter of judgment. I do not want us to have a slanging match without coming to any conclusion.
Mr. Kinnock
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Heffer
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member for Stretford made his reply to the Prime Minister. I do not know whether the Prime Minister wishes to say anything more. I shall call him if he does.
Mr. Kinnock
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Whitelaw
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker
Point of order, Mr. Whitelaw.
Mr. Whitelaw
I hope that this will be a helpful point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have heard it said before, and the Prime Minister will have heard it said, that slurs on people who are dead are not advisable in the House. That has frequently been said before. Does the Prime Minister agree that a slur of this nature on someone who is dead is unfortunate and that he should realise it and not go on with it?
The Prime Minister
If I had thought that the remark was untruthful, I would not have made it. The record of the late Sir Winston Churchill in that dispute is a matter which is and continues to be deeply felt in South Wales. [Interruption.] There is no need for Opposition Members to try to make up to the hon. Member for Stretford for having voted against him in the defence committee.
As regards Sir Winston Churchill 's record, there is no need for me to add any words to what I am known to feel about him or his services to the country. That is well known. I have said it myself on previous occasions and I have no hesitation in saying it again. However, there is a particular issue here which is unresolved at the bar of history, even now.
Mr. Heffer
On a further point of order, Mr. Speaker. Obviously you wish us to be helpful. I assure you that I wish [column 699]to be nothing but helpful. This is an entirely different point of order, but it is true to say that it may arise out of circumstances that we have just witnessed.
After my right hon. Friend had made a statement and there had also been a statement by the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill), a great baying noise came from the Opposition and you, Mr. Speaker, drew this fact to the attention of Labour Members. I found that very strange indeed.
I ask that in future you ask the 73 per cent. of public schoolboys on the Opposition side of the House to behave not like street corner boys but to behave—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. This is an unexpected contribution. The House should listen to the hon. Member.
Mr. Heffer
I should like Opposition Members to behave—I shall finish on this point, Mr. Speaker—on the basis of the type of education that they have received.
Hon. Members
They are.
Mr. Speaker
Order.
Mr. Kinnock
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Does the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) also want to be helpful? He nods his head. I shall make an act of faith.
Mr. Kinnock
As long as you do not expect me, Mr. Speaker, to make an act of contrition. I wish to say, on an entirely helpful point of order, how much I admire your great dispassion, Mr. Speaker, as I know that you come from Tonypandy. Secondy, there have been certain inaccuracies perpetrated, and as the House must make a judgment on these things—as, indeed, you do, Mr. Speaker—it might be as well to correct one or two misapprehensions.
Mr. Speaker
Order. That is the point at which the hon. Gentleman ceases to be helpful.
Mr. Kinnock
rose——
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman can rise only to a further point of order. We do not want a recital of history—from anyone.
[column 700]Mr. Kinnock
I fully appreciate that, Mr. Speaker—except that we have had one version of history this afternoon.
Mr. Speaker
Order. Our trouble is that we have had two versions.
Mr. Rhodes James
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Kinnock
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker
Order. I gave the hon. Gentleman a fair chance. The House is waiting to move on to a very important debate. I call the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Rhodes James). I hope that he will be helpful as well.
Mr. Rhodes James
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The events of 1910 and 1911 are indeed a matter of controversy, but I hope that this House and you, Mr. Speaker, will recognise that the actions taken by the then Home Secretary—[Hon. Members: “Oh.” ]—were matters of great restraint. [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. This is pursuing the argument.
I suggest to the House that we leave the matter. I never thought that the day would come when a pupil of Tonypandy grammar school would have the last word between both sides of this place on such a matter. I believe that it is to the mutual advantage of this House to leave the matter there.
CBI
Q5. Mr. Noble
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the CBI.
The Prime Minister
I meet representatives of the CBI from time to time, at NEDC and on other occasions. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.
Mr. Noble
Will my right hon. Friend ignore the synthetic anger of the official Opposition about the Ford situation? When he next meets representatives of the CBI, will he take them on a guided tour of the House of Commons car parks where they will be able to count the number of foreign cars owned by Opposition Members? [Interruption.] A substantial minority, if not an absolute majority, have imported cars from abroad.
[column 701]The Prime Minister
I well understand my hon. Friend's point, but I do not think that I shall take that particular course. When I meet CBI representatives I shall be very anxious to discuss with them the points which they put to me in a letter which I received today in which they say that, as far as they know, half a million workers have settled within the Government's 5 per cent. guidelines. But they wish to discuss with me—[An Hon. Member: “That is not true.” ] If it is not true, the hon. Gentleman must take it up with the CBI. I do not want to fan any more quarrels between the CBI and the Opposition. I wish them well. The CBI wishes to discuss with me some better arrangements for settling pay in the long term. In its letter it also states that it is fully behind the Government in their plans, progress and determination to keep down inflation.