Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

House of Commons PQs

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC [950/1741-49]
Editorial comments: 1515-1530.
Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 3012
Themes: Employment, Industry
[column 1741]

MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

(PUBLIC DUTIES)

Q1. Mr. Blaker

asked the Prime Minister what security vetting procedures are applied to hon. Members as a consequence of the nature of their public duties.

The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)

None.

Mr. Blaker

Will the Prime Minister confirm that on his instructions, or with his approval, the security services are maintaining regular surveillance over more than a dozen Labour hon. Members?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman knows better than that from his past experience. He also knows that it is not customary to comment on these security matters. But as Opposition Members are determined to make a continual smear of this I shall on this occasion make an exception and say that the report in The Sunday Express was entirely untrue.

Mr. Michael Stewart

Is any special watch kept on hon. Members who have persistently encouraged and given and and comfort to the rebel Government in Rhodesia?

The Prime Minister

No, Sir. No surveillance is kept on them or on other Members.

Mr. Beith

Does the right hon. Gentleman see any sense in the kind of security policy apparently advocated by Opposition Members, in which one reveals on the Floor of the House at whom security inquiries are directed?

The Prime Minister

There is no sense of national security about it, but I find that when the Conservative Party is in Opposition it rarely lets that trouble it.

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Mr. Heffer

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we should be delighted with the reply he has given? But if there were ever to be any surveillance of any hon. Member on the Back Benches on either side of the House would he also look at those who might be representative of the CIA, BOSS, SAVAK and other security organisations, other than those referred to by Opposition Members?

The Prime Minister

The Security Commission—the Diplock Commission—looked into this matter following the events of 1973, of which I dare say I need not remind the Conservative Party. It came to the conclusion that we could not and should not alter the existing practices. If ever there were, or should be, or has been, a case under which hon. Members are subject to any kind of surveillance, I would follow the procedure affirmed to the House by my predecessor and the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), namely, of taking an appropriate moment when national security is not involved to report the matter to the House.

Mr. Blaker

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

PRIME MINISTER

(ENGAGEMENTS)

Q2. Mr. Molloy

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his engagements for 25th May.

The Prime Minister

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. I shall also be meeting the Prime Minister of Mauritius.

Mr. Molloy

In the context of meeting others, will my right hon. Friend be prepared to meet members of the Press to explain to them what it really means to this country to have had an increase of 1 per cent. in the gross national product over the past three months, which over a year could mean a 4 per cent. increase, and which even The Guardian acknowledges as being quite a remarkable achievement, or words to that effect? [column 1743]Together with moderation in wage negotiations, and the fight against inflation, this means that there is now a real possibility of an increase of standards of life for ordinary working people and brighter prospects for Great Britain.

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir. There has, I think, been a considerable improvement in a number of these factors over the past 12 months. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for calling attention to them. But

“To make the structural changes that are necessary to restore the dynamic of a mixed economy will need a settled approach over a long, hard haul. It is idle to talk, as so often before, of the economic miracle that is round the corner.”

Those wise words from the Conservative document “The Right Approach” I absolutely applaud.

Mrs. Thatcher

James CallaghanThe Prime Minister will have had drawn to his attention the report from the National Federation of Self-Employed which demonstrates quite clearly that its members could take on many more people and give them jobs were it not for the present Government's labour legislation. As that report flatly contradicts what the Prime Minister said on Tuesday, will he now review that labour legislation to see that it is fair to employer and employee alike?

The Prime Minister

No, Sir. I see no reason to review the legislation. Altering the relative position of employers and employees has brought considerable protection at a time when there will be great changes in this country's economic affairs. I do not wish to return to the situation that existed in 1973 and 1974, when the Conservative Party showed that it had totally failed to understand industrial relations in this country.

Mrs. Thatcher

Is not the Prime Minister totally failing to understand the nature of some labour legislation? Since, quite clearly, those who run small businesses say that such legislation is preventing them from taking on more people, and as the Minister responsible for small businesses in the Cabinet clearly believes the same thing, why is the Prime Minister out of step?

The Prime Minister

This is a matter of judgment and not of fact. It is the judgment of the Government that it is far better to preserve employment in the [column 1744]way that we are, by helping small businesses through improvements in the capital transfer tax and in their taxation position generally, and other things that have been welcomed by small businesses, than by altering labour legislation. I warn the right hon. Lady not to tamper with it.

Mr. Madden

Has the Prime Minister noticed the extraordinary speeches of the Leader of the Opposition and other prominent Tories, claiming that Socialism breeds crime and violence? Will he make it abundantly clear that the Tory Party does not enjoy a monopoly of concern about crime and violence, or a monopoly of compassion about the victims of crimes, or, indeed, a monopoly of wisdom about the methods of combating crime and violence?

The Prime Minister

I accept that, but we should not take all the speeches of the Leader of the Opposition seriously. We should not attach more weight to them than the electorate knows they will hold. The case is that since this Government came to power 7,500 more police have been employed, we are spending, in real terms, £250 million more—and that figure will go up when the Edmund Davies report appears—and we shall continue to put forward policies that are necessary to overcome the crime increase. The Conservatives will no doubt make this a party matter, but I doubt whether the country will.

Mr. Fairbairn

Could the Prime Minister take time off today, on his way back to No. 10 Downing Street, to look in the window of No. 36 Parliament Street, which is an emporium of the Department of the Environment, where he will see the following advertisement:

“Now for sale. No. 10 Downing Street Price 50p.”

Is this an indication to the country of his electoral intentions? Assuming that the present incumbent is to be thrown in with the heritable property, under the Government's prices and consumer protection policy should we not expect a rebate for the purchaser?

The Prime Minister

As is well known I am the occupier of a tied cottage and can be ejected at any moment if the electorate dislikes me. I have to abide by that. Alas, I am not covered by the legislation which gave so much assistance to [column 1745]agricultural workers. I am content to live in the cottage on those conditions.

Q3. Mr. Skinner

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 25th May.

The Prime Minister

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Faling, North (Mr. Molloy).

Mr. Skinner

Will the Prime Minister, before the club gets up for the hols, take a few minutes from his less busy day and consider the changing fortunes of the political parties over the course of the last 12 months? Does he recall, for instance, that at the Tory Party conference only last year buoyant members were displaying badges that said “Put a woman on top for a change” and now, only nine months later a disaffected Conservative printer is issuing to the Liberal Party Whips' Office badges and car stickers which say “Ditch the bitch” ? [Hon. Members: “Withdraw.” ] Does my right hon. Friend deplore——

Mr. Speaker

Order. We all want to give the hon. Gentleman his fair chance, but the whole House does not like that sort of thing.

Mr. Skinner

Does the Prime Minister, like me, deplore this drift into political vulgarity on the part of the Opposition?

The Prime Minister

My hon. Friend is well known both for his strong views——

Mr. Fairbairn

And his bad taste.

The Prime Minister

—and the courage of his convictions. I am bound to say that I do not like personal anim-adversions of this sort.

Mr. Baker

Does the Prime Minister recall that over the past six months the money supply has increased at an annual rate of 21 per cent.? Is not the inevitable consequence of this, as I am sure he and the Chancellor would agree, that in nine to 12 months inflation will be into double figures? What proposals does he have to deal with this, other than calling an early General Election, before the chickens come home to roost?

The Prime Minister

I understand that Questions were addressed to the Chan[column 1746]cellor of the Exchequer on this matter a few minutes ago——

Mr. Lawson

Answer.

The Prime Minister

I shall gladly give my own views on this if the hon. Gentleman is so keen to have them. I think that there are factors that ought to be of concern to us in this situation, although, so far so good; we have done pretty well on these matters. What we can say, and what I would say, as I am sure the Chancellor has already said, is that we intend to watch this matter pretty closely. I will not have the great success that we have had with inflation dissipated by an increase in the money supply that cannot be contained. Appropriate action will be taken when it is necessary——

Mr. Baker

The money supply is going up.

The Prime Minister

No, it is not. That is a matter of opinion, and the hon. Gentleman is not always universally right. When we are convinced that it is necessary to take action, action will be taken. This prize that the country has won—to get inflation down to this level—is too great for us to allow it to be thrown away. Although the hon. Gentleman's eyes may be fixed on some distant General Election, that will not deflect the Government from taking any action necessary to keep inflation under control. He can be sure of that.

CBI

Q4. Mr. Stoddart

asked the Prime Minister when he last met the Confederation of British Industry.

The Prime Minister

I met representatives of the CBI on 6th February. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.

Mr. Stoddart

Will my right hon. Friend comment on the hostile reaction of the CBI to the White Paper on industrial democracy? Will he tell the CBI that it would be serving the country much better if it educated its members in the need for more and better worker participation in industry and, further, that it should do its best to bring this about?

[column 1747]

The Prime Minister

I was surprised at the reaction of the CBI, especially in view of the conversations that I have had with it and the fact that I have gone some way to meet what I thought were its genuine worries about this matter. I felt that its reaction was unnecessary and in contrast to what I thought was 45 minutes of very good questioning about this matter in the House of Commons. I would like to say to Conservative Members that I valued the nature of the questions, which were designed to try to put this matter on a proper basis. I hope that the CBI will reconsider its position, because we intend to press ahead with preparing legislation and, in the interests of its members, it should enter into constructive discussions with us.

Mr. Alexander Fletcher

In view of our important business interests in Africa, may I ask the Prime Minister to respond positively to Mr. Tindeman 's proposal for European countries to operate a pan-African force to rescue British workers and others who may be the victims of Communist-inspired terrorism in Africa? Will he also seek to include Rhodesia in such a proposal?

The Prime Minister

I read Mr. Tindeman 's remarks with considerable interest. There is a problem, in countries where there is not a settled Government, that should be the subject of discussion between the European nations, and I am sure that we should be glad to enter into such discussions to see whether arrangements can be made to safeguard the lives of our citizens on a joint basis. Indeed, I made such a remark when I was questioned by the Leader of the Opposition on Tuesday.

We must be careful about this, because the African countries concerned are clearly sensitive about these matters and it would have to be done in conjunction with them. I understand that in Zaire discussions have already begun about this. If we take the politics into account the answer is “In principle, yes.” But we have to consider what the impact would be in Africa.

Mr. Flannery

Has my right hon. Friend noticed that there is a tendency, especially on the Opposition Benches, to talk about the CBI as though it is a philanthropic organisation? Has he also noticed that the CBI, in the minds of [column 1748]many people, is often linked with the TUC, as though these two organisations are not diametrically and fundamentally opposed to one another?

Will my right hon. Friend comment on the fact that, had the adherents of the CBI and the Opposition Benches had their way, over £700 million would have been taken out of the Budget in order to be poured into their pockets and the pockets of their friends, and that working people would have been put out of work as a result of this manoeuvre, if we had not resisted it to the best of our ability?

The Prime Minister

At the CBI dinner I ventured to make some comments in favour of public expenditure and the need for it. I was gratified at the response, but I could not help reflecting that the week before the CBI had circulated all Members of Parliament asking them to vote for reduction in taxation as well.

Mr. Peter Walker

As the Prime Minister is anxious to make progress in industrial democracy, and as the unions have a major part in that, does he believe that it is important that unions should have the most democratic system available to them? Will he encourage more of them to go over to a postal ballot system for the election of their officers?

The Prime Minister

The postal ballot system works well in many unions. I think it would be best if the House were to leave this to the unions to settle. I have had some experience of these matters, and I believe that it would be far better to do that. I hope that the House will detach itself as far as possible from interfering in the affairs of the unions which are quite capable of dealing with their own affairs on these matters. That is the way in which I should like to see them proceed.

Mr. Neubert

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will you explain why the Prime Minister on Tuesday refused to answer a question on Zaire which was posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Northwich (Mr. Goodlad) in relation to a visit to Tarporley, when the Prime Minister was prepared to answer a question today about Zaire in relation to the CBI?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for Romford (Mr. Neubert) could with justice [column 1749]have asked me why I did not pull up his hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher) in the way that I pulled up his hon. Friend for Northwich (Mr. Goodlad) on that question. But the Prime Minister's answers are his responsibility.

The Prime Minister

There are times when I despair of ever achieving a sensible solution to this problem, but the way I look at it is this: if an hon. Gentleman tables a Question about Tarporley, I expect his supplementary to refer to that; I do not expect him immediately to refer to Zaire. After that, under your direction, Mr. Speaker, we seem to wander around the globe, and I feel that I have a responsibility to answer questions put, but not on the original Question.