RHODESIA
Q1. Mr. Nicholas Winterton
asked the Prime Minister if he now has any plans to visit Rhodesia.
[column 441]The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I have no plans to visit Rhodesia.
Mr. Winterton
When the Prime Minister finds the courage to visit Rhodesia, may I ask him whether he is aware that he will find a country which is prosperous and peaceful, where black, brown and white people live and work together? Will he therefore support the internal settlement, which, for all its possible deficiencies, is a dramatic advance on the situation 12 months ago and which will lead to black majority rule at the end of the year? Or is the Prime Minister——
Mr. John Mendelson
Speech.
Mr. Winterton
—wishing to see the hammer and sickle of Soviet-Marxist motivated and manipulated tyranny stamped on yet another African country?
The Prime Minister
That seems to be more a declaration of faith than a question. The position is clear for the Government. I would go part of the way with the hon. Gentleman in saying that the position has advanced a lot since 12 months ago. It is a pity that what has happened did not happen 12 months ago, and it is a great pity that the hon. Gentleman was not encouraging people to go as far as that 12 months ago. What is also pretty clear is that this internal advance does not act as a substitute for the Anglo-American proposals and that the internal advance is certainly not sufficient to reconcile some of the most prominent nationalists in Zimbabwe. The best thing is that they should get together, preferably on the basis of the proposals that we have made, to try to ensure peaceful progress for the new Zimbabwe on the basis of majority rule.
Sir G. de Freitas
Will my right hon. Friend, if he has the chance, remind the blacks and whites concerned, inside and outside Rhodesia, that today, 15 years after the independence of Kenya, blacks and whites live and work together under the rule of law under a black Government in Kenya?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend has considerable experience on this matter, having been High Commissioner in Kenya and responsible in the early days for much of the progress that [column 442]took place. I hope that what he has said will be heard in Salisbury.
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman
In the time that the Prime Minister saves by not visiting Rhodesia, may I ask him to consider the idea of using some now disused open prisons, as weekend prisons for adult offenders—a matter about which I wrote to the Home Secretary? [Interruption.] Does he accept——
Mr. Speaker
Order. I could not hear the hon. Lady properly. Was she asking about Rhodesia?
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman
I was asking about the time the Prime Minister is saving by not visiting Rhodesia and seeking to ask the Prime Minister a question which I have already put to the Home Secretary.
Mr. Fairbairn
On the subject of Rhodesia, may I ask the Prime Minister to direct his attention to those black people there whom the hunger campaigns are trying to help and who are not receiving financial assistance from the British Government? Could he tell us, now that events have advanced as much as they have, whether the Government are willing to give aid for Freedom From Hunger in Rhodesia, which is working for black people, since to deny it on political grounds to such people but not to deny it to the people of Vietnam on political grounds seems an indescribable discrimination?
The Prime Minister
The hon. and learned Gentleman has raised an important question. There is to be a debate on Rhodesia today, and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will be able to say something about it then.
Mr. Whitehead
As one of the places where black and white seem unable to work together in Rhodesia is in the interim Government under the so-called internal settlement, will my right hon. Friend seek an early opportunity to see the Minister who was so peremptorily dismissed from that Government, who can tell him and the House what a mockery the settlement is?
The Prime Minister
I do not wish to intervene in this matter. If my right hon. Friend thinks it necessary to see him, I am sure that he will do so.
[column 443]SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENERGY (SPEECH)
Q2. Mr. Michael Latham
asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech by the Secretary of State for Energy to the conference of the Institute for Workers' Control in Sheffield on 16th April regarding the influence of the trade unions on the Government represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend did not speak from a text, and I understand that he made no statement of policy, but he did discuss some future possible roles for trade unions in matters of plant closures, the organisation of higher income groups, industrial investment and accountability.
Mr. Latham
When the Prime Minister next tries to persuade British business men that the Government are not totally hostile to them, will he admit that the Secretary of State, in his speech to that extreme Left-wing organisation, said that trade unionism was an essential part of an alternative strategy of workers' control? Is that the Prime Minister's view as well?
The Prime Minister
I have not seen that statement, so I am unable to comment on it. But I do not think that all these matters need detailed textual examination. The hon. Gentleman's question is about the influence of the trade unions on the Government. My answer is that the trade unions, like anyone else who talks sense, have influence on the Government. Indeed, sometimes even the Opposition might.
Mrs. Castle
Would not my right hon. Friend agree that a far more urgent question concerning energy supply is the effect of the steep increase in electricity prices on those who have to live in all-electric homes, as thousands of my constituents do? Will he give an assurance that next winter the Government will renew the winter fuel rebate and extend it to a much larger number of people?
The Prime Minister
I am aware of the consequences of having turned the electricity generating and supplying authorities into bodies that are capable of supporting themselves and of financing their own new investment, and that this has [column 444]borne hardly on some people. I understand that that period is now over and that the extent of further increases will depend on the extent to which we can curb inflation. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) is right to call attention to the great help that has been given through the fuel abatement scheme, and I will ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy to come forward with new proposals on how he plans to handle next winter.
Mr. Pardoe
Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that although the Secretary of State for Energy spoke from notes, his speech was reported fairly extensively in the Press? Does he recognise that in this matter of workers' control, as in most others, his own son-in-law is a far wiser man than the Secretary of State for Energy? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that his son-in-law has suggested that we need workers' control in order to counteract over-strong trade unionism? That is precisely the opposite of the view expressed by the Secretary of State. Which view does the Prime Minister accept?
The Prime Minister
I am always being asked to impale myself on some Morton's fork or other and decline to do so. The Government will shortly be publishing our views on industrial democracy. I regard it as a very important next step to take, and I hope that the House will give the matter very full consideration when our views are made known.
STREATHAM
Q3. Mr. William Shelton
asked the Prime Minister if he plans to make an official visit to Streatham.
The Prime Minister
I have at present no plans to visit Streatham.
Mr. Shelton
As the Prime Minister is no doubt aware, polling is taking place today in the local government elections. Is he aware that a considerable number of Left-wing extremists are standing as official Labour Party candidates and that, as a result, the Labour leader of the council, in a statement to the Press last week, said that he feared the outcome might be
“a Marxist dictatorship in the borough” ?
[column 445]Will the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to warn the people of Lambeth?
The Prime Minister
I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should go and do some canvassing if he holds views as strongly as that.
Mr. Hoyle
Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it might be a pleasant surprise for Streatham to have a change in that area, even if it was Marxist?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his assistance, but I make it clear that I do not believe that a Marxist Streatham would be any better than the present Conservative Streatham.
Mrs. Thatcher
James CallaghanThe Prime Minister himself used to speak to the nation of infiltrators into his own party who used the party for their own ends. Will he, therefore take this opportunity to condemn Marxism wherever it occurs in the Labour Party?
The Prime Minister
I know that the right hon. Lady is making some interesting excursions into political philosophy, but she really should begin to learn that China, too, her current hero, is a Marxist State.
Mrs. Thatcher
Why is the right hon. Gentleman incapable of giving a straight answer to a straight question on political parties in this country? Will he condemn Marxism wherever it occurs in his party? I condemn it everywhere.
Hon. Members
Answer.
The Prime Minister
I am afraid that I regard the right hon. Lady's question as too silly to address myself to.
Mr. Canavan
Reverting to the theme of local elections, would my right hon. Friend care to comment on the Scottish local election results earlier this week, when, contrary to the predictions——
Mr. Speaker
Order. That is a long way from Streatham. [Hon. Members: “So was China.” ] Yes, I know that China, too, is a long way from Streatham.
Mr. Canavan
As the people of Streatham are voting in their local elections today, would my right hon. Friend care to comment on the Scottish local election [column 446]result earlier this week, when, contrary to the predictions of the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn), the Labour Party secured a significant dual victory by not only thumping the Tories but also hammering another nail into the coffin of the Scottish National Party?
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q4. Mr. Loyden
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 4th May.
The Prime Minister
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House. I shall be holding further meetings with Ministerial colleagues and others, including one with the Mayor of Delhi. I also hope to attend a reception being given by the Prime Minister of Guyana.
Mr. Loyden
Will my right hon. Friend take some time today to look at Early-Day Motion No. 392, standing in my names and the names of my hon. Friends regarding the pay of industrial civil servants? Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the Government should be a model good employer? Is he aware of the outrageous conditions which in some cases prevail in Government employ?
The Prime Minister
The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is “Yes” . I think that the Government should be in the first flight of employers. I hope that my hon. Friend will address the second part to the appropriate Civil Service Departments which, I am sure, will look into it—and the Civil Service unions will no doubt seek to negotiate improvements.
Mr. McCrindle
Can the Prime Minister find time today to telephone Mr. Peter Parker and congratulate him on the better results from British Rail over the last year, and express the hope that some of that money might be devoted to maintaining the level of commuter fares rather than that the colossal burden of recent years should continue—and perhaps that some might even be devoted to improving the reliability and quality of commuter trains?
The Prime Minister
I do not think that I will telephone Mr. Parker on that [column 447]matter, but I will certainly pass on to the Secretary of State for Transport what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mrs. Dunwoody
Will my right hon. Friend find some time today to send a rather sharp note to the Shadow spokesman on defence who has accused him of telling lies? Is my right hon. Friend aware that he is exceedingly honoured, as usually that right hon. Gentleman accuses only the dead?
The Prime Minister
I have a feeling that we might as well leave this correspondence where it was. I was quite happy with the result of it.
Mr. Watt
Will the Prime Minister find time during the day to have a quick look at the report of the Trade and Industry Sub-Committee on the fishing industry, in which it recommends that the Minister of Agriculture should stand firm on the demand for a 50-mile limit for fishermen? Will the Prime Minister assure his colleague that the entire Cabinet takes that view?
The Prime Minister
I shall certainly draw the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to what the hon. Gentleman has said, but he can be quite certain that my right hon. Friend will continue to fight the battle as he has done on behalf of our fishermen.
Mr. Dalyell
When the Prime Minister meets the Prime Minister of Guyana, will he make it clear that the British Government are against any ceding by Belize of territory to Guatemala?
The Prime Minister
I have discussed this matter with the Prime Minister of Guyana and I think that we both understand the position very well.