Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

House of Commons PQs

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC [948/247-54]
Editorial comments: 1515-1530.
Importance ranking: Major
Word count: 2537
Themes: Defence (general), Pay
[column 247]

PRIME MINISTER

(ENGAGEMENTS)

Q1. Mr. Viggers

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 18th April 1978.

The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)

In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.

Mr. Viggers

Has the Prime Minister had time today to see the Press reports which show that 977 officers are queueing to leave the Army? Is he aware that this figure represents the officer strength of 30 battalions and that the Royal Air Force may be short of 200 pilots by 1980? Is the Prime Minister aware of the disgust within the Armed Services at the Government's attitude to pay and conditions? Is he aware that this is masked only by their sense of discipline and high sense of duty?

The Prime Minister

Yes, I have seen these interesting reports. They seem to me to be a piece of very useful information that someone has managed to get out during the period when the Government are considering this matter of pay. I congratulate the person whose initiative it was. We shall continue to consider the matter and we shall bring the answer before the House in due course.

Mr. Urwin

I fully appreciate the extensive nature of my right hon. Friend's commitments for today, but will he try to find a little time to talk to the delegation of councillors from Sunderland who are lobbying Ministers at Westminster this week? If my right hon. Friend is not [column 248]able to do that, will he give urgent consideration to making an early visit to Wearside and the North-East to discuss these problems at greater length?

The Prime Minister

I am aware of the request by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) for me to receive a deputation, but it seems better that I should receive a deputation from the North-East as a whole. That is what I propose to do.

Mrs. Thatcher

May I press James Callaghanthe Prime Minister a little further on the question which was put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers)? Is he aware that those figures reveal an appalling situation in response to the Pay Review Body's decision last year and that about 7,600 people have either left the Armed Forces or have applied to leave as a result of last year's pay review? Will he agree to look at this pay claim on merit, not within the 10 per cent. guideline, otherwise we shall be in danger of having some equipment without people to service it properly?

The Prime Minister

I am yet not sure what is the authority for these figures as no official announcement has been made. Clearly, someone has thought that it might help the pay claim if he produced them at this stage. I am unable to comment on whether or not they are accurate. If the Opposition know that they are accurate, perhaps they will tell me where they got the information. I should be interested to hear.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

What is your answer?

The Prime Minister

The general position of the pay claim of the Armed Forces will be considered, as it is being considered, and an answer will be given to the House, against the background of all the other pay claims, the responsibility of the Government for the defence of the country and every other factor that must be taken into account before a decision is reached.

Mrs. Thatcher

Is the Prime Minister saying that those figures are inaccurate or is he merely stalling? If they are accurate, is he prepared to take them into account in finalising the Armed Forces' pay claim?

The Prime Minister

I am saying that the figures have not been officially issued. [column 249]I am not aware whether they are right or wrong. I am making inquiries about that. I believe that they were produced extremely fortuitously. I say for the third time that I shall be interested to see whether they are right or wrong. If they are right, it shows that there are better opportunities in civilian life than there are in the Armed Forces, or that many people think so. That is a factor that must be taken into account.

I cannot be pushed into decisions on these matters without having regard to the whole of the situation that faces the country. I shall not be so pushed. I have every sympathy with the Service men.

Mr. David Steel

May I ask the Prime Minister about Press reports on an entirely different matter? Do any of his meetings with his ministerial colleagues today relate to the Government assisting the passage of the Protection of Children Bill? If he could say something about that, it would be widely welcomed in all parts of the House.

The Prime Minister

I regret very much that the progress of that Bill was impeded. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is now considering the matter to see what assistance can be given to ensure that, with the will of the House, it gets to the statute book. Where there is, as I understand it, an overwhelming view by the House, not a divided view—and I believe that this is what nearly everyone, it not everyone, wants—that the Bill should reach the statute book, I believe that the Government should do their best to help.

Mr. Lee

Does my right hon. Friend agree that although that Bill should be given a fair wind, so also should the Bill which is being piloted through by my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher)? Will my right hon. Friend urge the Leader of the House to provide time for my hon. Friend's Bill too?

The Prime Minister

Whatever sympathies I may have with these Bills, I think it is necessary to be careful about interfering with Private Members' time and saying that the Government must take responsibility for every Bill that does not manage to get through the House. I favour my hon. Friend's Bill, but there is a big division of opinion about it—[column 250]although it may involve only a small number of people—and, therefore, I do not think that the Government have the same responsibility there as they have in the case of the Protection of Children Bill.

Porthmadog

Q2. Mr. Wigley

asked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Porthmadog

The Prime Minister

I have at present no plans to visit Porthmadog, much as I should like to do so.

Mr. Wigley

Is the Prime Minister aware that in Porthmadog this winter the unemployment rate has been up to 15 per cent. and has worsened as a result of the Government's regional policies, particularly the withdrawal of REP? Is he further aware that during this period unemployment in Sweden stood at 2.1 per cent., in Austria 1.7 per cent. and in Norway 0.8 per cent.? Will he, therefore, stop peddling the myth that unemployment is a uniform problem in all Western countries?

The Prime Minister

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is comparing like with like. It so happens that the Government's measures have been of great assistance to Wales in the matter of employment, and that includes the investments made by the Welsh Development Agency. It is fair to say, especially on the basis of the results of a by-election last week, that the people of this country understand that the Labour Government are the best party capable of looking after the interests of the unemployed.

Mr. Ioan Evans

As well as making his regular visits to South Wales, will my right hon. Friend travel to North Wales and refer the people there to the splendid victory at Garscadden, when nationalism was completely rejected? Will he advise the people of North Wales that, if the problem of unemployment is to be dealt with, it will be done by maintaining the economic and political unity of the people of these islands?

The Prime Minister

Yes, I have no doubt about that, and no more has the Labour Party in Wales. If Plaid Cymru insists on independence, it will be rebuffed in Wales as the SNP was at Garscadden.

[column 251]

Mr. Wyn Roberts

The people of Wales are very anxious to say “No” in the referendum vote on the Welsh Assembly. Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a danger that we shall not reach today or tomorrow the amendment to the Wales Bill dealing with the 40 per cent. requirement for the referendum which is now in the Scotland Bill?

The Prime Minister

If the hon. Gentleman is right that people are anxious to say “No” , no doubt we shall have the assistance of himself and all other hon. Members in getting the Bill through so that the people may take full advantage of the opportunity to do so.

PRIME MINISTER

(ENGAGEMENTS)

Q3. Mr. Bryan Davies

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his engagements for Tuesday 18th April.

The Prime Minister

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I have just given to the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers).

Mr. Davies

During a busy day, will my right hon. Friend have time to consider the rather sinister news that the Opposition appear to believe that a major priority, if they should ever form an Administration, should be to devote the best brains in Whitehall to beefing up the Contingency Planning Unit in order to defeat the trade unions in any confrontation which might arise? Is it not highly significant that the only planning that the Opposition believe in is planning of this destructive kind?

The Prime Minister

I am not responsible for these Press reports, and I do not know whether the Opposition's attitude in these matters is sinister or naive. I do know that they do not understand the trade union movement. However, this is an interesting development. I suggest in all seriousness to the Opposition that they might consider publishing this report in order to avoid any sinister implications being put upon it.

Mr. Tebbit

Will the Prime Minister spare us a little of his expertise on these matters since it was he who became the first Prime Minister for many years to use [column 252]troops for strike breaking, as he did during the fire brigade strike? Is he aware that we regard him as a bit of an expert on using troops for strike breaking and even in getting the approval of his hon. Friends to do so?

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

Sunk without trace.

The Prime Minister

I should like to deny the allegation that there were cries of “Author” when the hon. Gentleman rose to his feet to deal with this report. It is fair to say, however, that on the whole the Conservative Party tends in its dealings with the trade unions to be aggressive when it should be accommodating and to be timid when it should be bold. If the Conservatives would like me to hold a seminar on this question, I should be happy to do so.

Mr. Skinner

Will my right hon. Friend accept from me as one who did not support him in his attempt to defeat the firemen that I should like him to turn his attention to another very important matter of saving jobs? Is he aware that the Minister of Agriculture is meeting the Bakers Union representatives today with a view to saving 4,200 jobs which will be lost because of the recent agreement to close down Spillers? Is he aware that the argument about spare capacity is no longer acceptable to these men? They are being asked to work 12-hour instead of 8-hour shifts. Is my right hon. Friend aware that from 22nd April, if these jobs are not saved, there will be an overtime ban in the baking industry?

The Prime Minister

I am sure that on reflection my hon. Friend would not want to spread the belief that the firemen were defeated. They were not. They had an increase of 10 per cent. plus a pledge that their conditions would be brought up to the proper level over a two-year period. That was not a defeat but was a fair settlement for everybody. I hope that the information my hon. Friend gave me about the bakers will be brought out in the discussions with Ministers. That is the appropriate place for it to be discussed.

Mr. Powell

Is it not absurd and derogatory to this House that, unlike any other Minister, the Prime Minister should be expected to answer without notice [column 253]questions of detailed fact? If this sort of programme is required, would it not be better on the radio?

The Prime Minister

It is true that the character of Prime Minister's Questions—I do not know about the answers—has changed over a period of years. They seem to have become much more an opportunity to make party points and to reply to them than used to be the case. I regret that development. As far as I can, I try to prepare myself for it as long as the House wishes to do it in that way, but I believe that there is a better way of spending 15 minutes.

Mr. Ashley

If my right hon. Friend manages to find time to meet the Spillers company, will he tell it that as a result of its ruthless action in sacking 8,000 men without notice—many of them in my constituency—there will be acute shortages of bread all over Britain? Will the Government now lean on this firm to reopen negotiations about the closing of those bakeries?

The Prime Minister

I shall refer what my hon. Friend said to the appropriate Ministers and they must take due note of it.

Mr. Burden

As there is a great deal of today still left, will the Prime Minister return to 10 Downing Street and ask questions about the position in the Armed Forces? If what is stated is true, it is tragic that men who have served and acquired the necessary expertise for a modern army are now leaving it. Is he aware that it will create a desperate situation in the future unless this man drain is stopped?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman need have no fears. As soon as I saw this report on the tape at 1 o'clock, I asked that inquiries should be made. I did not have the replies by the time I came here at 2.30. I shall have the reply and we shall be able to check and see. [Interruption.] I work during the morning and do not spend the morning reading the tape. I saw it at 1 o'clock.

My guess is that these figures are probably correct, because I dare say that whoever has let them out in order to influence opinion would have taken very good care to ensure that they were correct. If so, of course, they display a disturbing feature of the Armed Forces drain, [column 254]although I understand that recruitment is going well.

But all this must be taken into account against the national situation, and I shall not be pushed on this matter any more than on any other. The Armed Forces will get a square deal—no more and no less.