Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

HC I [Pay Policy (Government Powers)]

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC [943/1277-80]
Editorial comments: 1728-38. MT intervened at c1280.
Importance ranking: Minor
Word count: 1234
[column 1277]

5.28 p.m.

Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk (Ormskirk)

I and some of my hon. Friends have made abundantly clear over recent months our position with regard to the use of discretionary powers by the Government. I stand by a large part of what I have said previously both in this House and outside.

I should also like to make clear that my concern—and the concern of my hon. Friends who are co-signatories of an Early-Day Motion—is with workers and not with the firms that have preoccupied the two speeches from the Opposition Benches. They have used the title of my Early-Day Motion, yet the major proportion of both speeches—almost all the speech of the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser)—have been devoted to the problems of Sun Alliance.

We are concerned about the use to which the Government have put their discretionary powers because of the possible effects upon employment prospects. I am concerned individually because I do not happen to accept or agree with the 10 per cent. guideline which in any event has become a 10 per cent. ceiling. We do not have a statutory pay policy. [column 1278]Nevertheless, the Government are using a battery of measures and sanctions to enforce a pay policy which has not been approved by this House and which is disapproved of by many of my hon. Friends and myself.

Given that some of my hon. Friends, and even Opposition Members, happen to agree with the 10 per cent. guideline or ceiling, I must say that the case that my right hon. Friend made out today seemed to be a very powerful one. I say that in the sense that many of the criticisms that I intended to make have been taken from me.

It is the case that the policy is not totally even-handed. It seems to be totally unreasonable and unfair that one should operate it against the small firms but leave the Fords to escape unscathed. It is unreasonable that it should be used against very small firms, such as High Speed Turnings, in Kirkby, in my constituency, and also to threaten the same kind of sanctions—the withdrawal of the temporary employment subsidy—against Otis Elevators, also in my constituency.

I am pleased that my right hon. Friend today gave the kind of assurance that I and my hon. Friends have been looking for, namely, that these sanctions will not be used to endanger jobs—particularly jobs in areas like Merseyside, where we have a high level of unemployment—and that in practice the discrimination will be used sensitively and flexibly.

Mr. Peter Hordern (Horsham and Crawley)

I thought that the hon. Member said that one of the firms threatened in his constituency was the Otis Elevator Company, and that it was threatened by the potential withdrawal of the temporary employment subsidy. If that took place, how would it not jeopardise jobs in his constituency?

Mr. Kilroy-Silk

That has been made quite clear by my right hon. Friend and myself. The temporary employment subsidy was not withdrawn, even though the Government have acknowledged that the company has broken the pay guidelines. The Government have used their discretionary power and not withdrawn TES, because of the high unemployment in Kirkby.

That is a principle that I applaud. However, it is a dangerous precedent for the Government to use discretionary [column 1279]powers in this way, because these powers could be used in really dangerous ways by a future Conservative Government. I am not against sanctions per se. I want them to be used against employers to further the aims of the low-paid workers. I want them to be used against employers to further the aims of the disabled. I want the Government to pursue positively a policy that discriminates. However, I will not tolerate the Government using sanctions in a way that increases unemployment in any part of the United Kingdom. I find it totally unacceptable and unreasonable that sanctions should be used in areas of high unemployment, such as Kirkby and Merseyside.

I have no time at all for the Conservatives' sudden new-found synthetic concern, and their Johnny-come-lately attitude. It would have been more reasonable and believable if they had shown concern about protecting jobs at Chryslers or A.P. Herbert, and if they had been in favour of the TES and other measures to combat unemployment. They were not concerned with the small firms that have been on the black list for the past two years, but suddenly they found a lot to be concerned about when the black list affected Sun Alliance. They have two Members of Parliament on the board of directors of Sun Alliance as well as an ex-Tory Member. They pretend that they are sincerely interested in the effect of the abuse of Government powers on workers, but all they have done is to demonstrate their major preoccupation with their friends in the City. The Opposition have demonstrated clearly today that the Tory Party in Parliament is no more than a parliamentary extension of big business outside.

My Early-Day Motion was tabled on 30th November. If the Opposition felt that they could support it, why did they not sign it, instead of just stealing it for the title of today's debate? Not one Opposition Member has managed to put his or her name to my Early-Day Motion—not even the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Latham), who has been a critic of the Government on this matter.

Mr. Michael Latham

Of course the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk) will mention my amendment to his Early-Day Motion.

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Mr. Kilroy-Silk

Not only have the Conservatives not talked about this matter for two years and not signed my Early-Day Motion; they did not help when I sought an emergency debate in the House over the Government's threatening to withhold the TES and the effect of this on 1,000 workers in my constituency. I got no support at all from Conservatives. In fact, they took a great deal of delight in thwarting me. Where was she then, the Lady in Blue? It is all right to talk with indignation about Sun Alliance, but nowhere has there been any evidence of Opposition concern when 1,000 workers in my constituency had their jobs placed in jeopardy. If the Leader of the Opposition has a valuable contribution to this part of the debate I shall gladly give way to her. If she will defend her action in not supporting an application for emergency debate on the Otis Elevator Company, I shall give way.

There is no defence for the right hon. Lady except that she is here today seeking to make political capital. She is a political opportunist of the first order and I am not prepared to go into the Lobby today simply because the Opposition see my hon. Friends and myself as doing their dirty work for them, [Hon. Members: “Chicken.” ] It is not a matter of being chicken. The chicken, if that accusation should apply to anyone at all, must be levelled at the Leader of the Opposition, because she had the opportunity in her hands to sign my Early-Day Motion.

Mrs. Margaret Thatcher (Finchley)

I did not agree with it.

Mr. Kilroy-Silk

The right hon. Lady says she did not agree with it, but she still stole the title. She knows that if she had put down my motion for today's debate, many of her hon. Friends would not have followed her into the Lobby. I shall not dance to the Opposition's tune, no matter what reservations I have about the Government's actions. I do not see any reason why I should play the right hon. Lady's dirty game and follow her into the Lobby. I hope that my hon. Friends will all follow me in supporting the Government tonight.