FINCHLEY
Q1. Mr. William Hamilton
asked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Finchley.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. Hamilton
I did not hear the reply, but I can guess what it was. Will my right hon. Friend reconsider that decision, because it would make for an exciting political exercise if he did so? Does he not think that it was the height of lack of principle for the right hon. Member for that constituency—for purely squalid party political gain—to descend into the political gutter, to the great revulsion and anger of her more enlightened and principled colleagues, both inside and outside the Shadow Cabinet?
The Prime Minister
I would not dream of using intemperate language, but I think that there is some confusion on the Conservative Front Bench between opposition and opportunism, and we are seeing much more of the second than of the first.
Mr. Hordern
On his way to Finchley will the Prime Minister call into John Lewis, in Oxford Street? When he gets there, will he ask why the staff have been instructed not to serve an elderly gentleman with an Irish name who claims to come from Cardiff and is got up as a Sussex farmer?
The Prime Minister
If I were to go to Finchley I do not think I would go by way of John Lewis. With regard to my personal credentials, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the electorate of Cardiff have elected me with a steadily increasing majority for much longer than his constituents have elected him.
[column 1231]Mr. Molloy
Is the Prime Minister aware that he would have a much more interesting time if he came to the London borough of Ealing? He would then be aware that people there are not particularly disturbed at the vulgar remarks of the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition, despite the fact that they know that this has been the cry of all those who favour some form of racialism while looking for someone as a scapegoat on whom to hang their political arguments, in the hope that they frighten people rather than console, aid and try to maintain the decent society that we have built up in this country.
The Prime Minister
I have constantly taken the view that as far as possible there should be an all-party approach on both immigration and race relations. I stick to that as offering the best prospect for the future of this country. I hope that the Opposition will not desert some of the principles that they have so far appeared to embrace, especially in relation to both United Kingdom passport holders and the admission of relatives and dependants, to whom they have given the clearest possible assurances in the past.
Mrs. Thatcher
May I take it that James Callaghanthe Prime Minister totally rejects the conclusion of the 1976 Labour Party conference—that the 1968 and 1971 Acts dealing with immigration should be repealed?
The Prime Minister
Yes. The Government have never accepted that view, as the right hon. Lady knows. I hope that she will not try to divert attention from the discussion that she has started raising false fears in this connection. I hoped that the right hon. Lady would say that in no circumstances would she repudiate the speeches that have been made by the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw). I do not know on what occasion she intends to be completely clear about this, but, for the good of the country, the sooner the better.
TUC
Q2. Mr. Ward
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the TUC.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Radice) on 2nd February.
[column 1232]Mr. Ward
In view of the comment last week which my right hon. Friend made to my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) that it was impossible to discuss any future economic progress in this country without discussing the role of wages and incomes, will he take advantage of the favourable economic indicators and invite the TUC to talk seriously about plans for a strategic view of wages and incomes in 1978–79?
The Prime Minister
There is continuous contact between the TUC and Members of the Government, particularly the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on all these issues. Of course the question of the future of inflation does to some extent depend, but not wholly, on levels of income. I would like to draw the attention of the House to the central issue with which we must deal—that of inflation. Anyone who criticises the Government should say how he or she intends to deal with it. I hope that we shall hear from the Opposition on this matter today.
Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson
Is the Prime Minister aware of the concern expressed by hon. Members on both sides of the House about the disgraceful behaviour of the Transport and General Workers' Union in blacking rail-borne freight to the Didcot distribution centre? Will he raise this matter with the TUC?
The Prime Minister
I have been following this matter but I think that I should leave it to the Secretary of State for Transport—[Hon. Members: “Why?” ] The Opposition seem singularly dense this afternoon. That is what ministerial responsibility is all about. The Secretary of State is having discussions and I hope that they will resolve the dispute.
Mr. Fernyhough
During the later debate today, it is expected that the Government will have to list the names of the firms to which they have denied Government help. Will the Prime Minister see that during the debate we also learn the names of all the firms that have had Government help?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) has hit naturally on the central issue—that when the Government take action they notify the individuals [column 1233]concerned about it and do not publish it to the world, whether it is in relation to price restraint or to subsidies. I shall certainly listen to as much of today's debate as I can, and I shall read the debate. Actually, I do not see any reason way the Government should not publish the names of these firms. This has never been any secret between the Government and the firms. However, before we do so we should perhaps have discussions with the CBI——
Mr. Powell
Leave the CBI out of it.
The Prime Minister
Yes, I believe we should have discussions with the CBI, just as I would have discussions with any other interests, including hon. Members on the Opposition Benches. I think that we should discuss this also with the Chambers of Commerce and take their views on the matter before coming to a final conclusion. I understand that the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) would like me to behave like a dictator, but I do not intend to do so.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q3. Mr. Canavan
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 7th February.
The Prime Minister
In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mr. Canavan
Will the Prime Minister find time today to tell us what possible justification there is for the Government proposal to remove the upper limit on rent increases for council house tenants in Scotland, especially at a time when the same Labour Government are imposing a strict 10 per cent. pay limit by using sanctions against employers who are accused of the heinous crime of paying their workers too high wages?
The Prime Minister
That seems to be an omnibus question. Perhaps my hon. Friend will consult the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Mr. David Price
As today is the quincentenary of the birth of his distinguished predecessor Sir Thomas More, will the Prime Minister put duty to God and [column 1234]conscience before duty to his Government?
The Prime Minister
Recently I have read a number of tributes to Sir Thomas More, and I like to think that in a modest way I might emulate him, although I doubt it. What I am quite clear about is that if Sir Thomas More were alive today, on subjects such as Northern Ireland, Scottish devolution, immigration and control of inflation he would not turn tail and run away like the Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Newens
During the course of today, or the last few days, has the Prime Minister had the opportunity to consider the pressing need for legislation to prevent mercenaries from being recruited in this country to fight in Africa and elsewhere? This is necessary not only in the interests of peace but in the interests of the misguided people who might be recruited.
The Prime Minister
I have not looked into this. On the last occasion we had discussions about it there was a complete investigation and it was decided that the best way to deal with the issue was to take action against those recruiting the mercenaries rather than the mercenaries themselves. That may require legislation, and it is along those lines that the Government want to proceed.
Mr. Neubert
Will the Prime Minister send birthday greetings to his son-in-law in Washington, who is 41 today? As this is Shrove Tuesday, can he substantiate his recent claim about leading us to the Promised Land? With the CBI reporting that two out of three manufacturers are working under capacity, with redundancies rising, output sluggish and demand weak, is it not clear that we are as far as ever from the Promised Land?
Mr. Dalyell
How would Sir Thomas More have solved the central question of Scottish devolution?
Mr. Speaker
Order. I think it was a good thing that many of us did not hear that question.
The Prime Minister
I am not sure what the eminent saint would have said about devolution. I did have conversations with the former Member for Ayr Burghs, who was also Sir Thomas [column 1235]Moore. He was a very vivid Scotsman who wanted the maximum power to rest in that country.
Mr. Alexander Fletcher
Will the Prime Minister come back to earth and invite the Scottish TUC to reconvene its crisis conference on unemployment? That conference has not been held for five years—not since we had a Tory Government in power, when the level of unemployment in Scotland was half what it is today.
The Prime Minister
I am sure that the Scottish TUC will handle its own affairs without intervention from me. The important question is how the Opposition will support the Government in overcoming inflation and ensuring that we have a competitive economic system to get people back to full employment.
Mr. Wrigglesworth
When my right hon. Friend consults the CBI in the way he has suggested will he remind the Director General, Mr. John Methven, of what he said last year about Government pay policy? He said that if the Government hold the line, the private sector will do its damndest to hold the line. Will he ask the Director General what he intends to do about people on the black list?
The Prime Minister
My conversations with Sir John lead me always to the conclusion that the CBI wishes to hold the line and is not encouraging its members to exceed in any way the 10 per cent. guideline. Indeed, it has given me information about a large number of companies which are keeping within the guideline. I wonder who those who are now apparently glorying in the situation—they include many Opposition Members—involving the breaking of guidelines and the conniving at secret agreements, think they are, and whether their dislike of the Government is so much greater than their dislike of the task of conquering inflation.