NATO HEADS OF GOVERNMENT
Q1. Mr. Roderick
asked the Prime Minister when he next intends to meet the Heads of Government of NATO member countries.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I will meet NATO Heads of Government collectively at the North Atlantic Council meeting to be held in Washington in May, although I expect to meet some of them on other occasions before then.
Mr. Roderick
Will my right hon. Friend contact them before that meeting to ask them to justify asking us to pay more for defence, bearing in mind that there is only one European member of NATO which contributes more as a proportion of its gross national product than the United Kingdom?
The Prime Minister
I constantly point that out, and I have to remind the Opposition that that is true too—namely, that we are the only country in NATO which contributes on all the major fronts. We have the largest European navy in the Eastern Atlantic, we contribute to the strategic weapon through the Polaris submarines, and we maintain an army on the mainland of Europe. That is a creditable performance.
Mr. Blaker
Has the Prime Minister's attention been drawn to yesterday's statement by the Tribune Group which calls for a policy of non-alignment and appears to be calling for closer talks between parties such as the Labour Party and the Communist Party? Will he tell his NATO colleagues that he totally repudiates that statement?
The Prime Minister
There is no ministerial responsibility for the Tribune Group.
[column 1172]Mr. MacFarquhar
Will my right hon. Friend say whether the NATO Heads of Government or their staffs have ongoing consultations about problems in the Horn of Africa? If so, to what conclusions are they coming?
The Prime Minister
The Horn of Africa is outside the area that the NATO group of countries takes into formal consideration, but there have been a number of discussions between certain members of NATO which have interests outside the normal boundaries of NATO. That will continue and, I hope, intensify in view of the adventurism that is now being shown in that area.
Mr. Alan Clark
When the Prime Minister meets the heads of the NATO countries, will he think it appropriate to raise with them the way in which British jobs and technology have been casually discarded in the political wheeling and dealing that governs weapon procurement within the Alliance, of which the rejection of the British tank gun is the most recent example? Is the Prime Minister aware that at the time the Boeing AWAC was rejected the quid pro quo was the purchase by the United States of an inferior German gun? Were the two programmes properly evaluated in terms of jobs and expenditure?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has just concluded 45 minutes of answering Questions on these matters. Surely these detailed questions would be more appropriately put to my right hon. Friend. The arrangements for the purchase of a British or other tank gun are still being pursued by the British team. I believe that on merits we have a very good case.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q2. Mr. Wyn Roberts
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his engagements for 24th January.
The Prime Minister
This morning I held ministerial meetings and attended the memorial service for Lady Spencer-Churchill. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues this [column 1173]afternoon. This evening I am looking forward to attending a reception in the consituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth, Central (Mr. Lipton) to celebrate more than 32 years' service by him as the Member of Parliament.
Mr. Roberts
No doubt in the course of his very full day the Prime Minister will not neglect to study the unemployment figures, which show an increase of 67,000 and are again above the 1½ million mark. When will he reduce the figures to the 600,000 that his Government inherited?
The Prime Minister
The unemployment figures published today show little change on the seasonally-adjusted figures—namely, a fall of 1,000. One of the encouraging factors—I hope that the House will feel that this is useful—is that unfilled vacancies have increased: the corresponding seasonally-adjusted figure has risen by much more than normal. I hope that this portends the beginning of the upward turn in the economy that the boost which has been put into it by the Chancellor's tax measures and reductions over the past six months should portend. I believe that that is so, but it would be wrong to assume that in a period of world recession this country will be exempt from consequences that are felt elsewhere.
Mrs. Jeger
Will my right hon. Friend find time to meet the Prime Minister of Belize and assure him that Her Majesty's Government have no intention of agreeing to the carve-up of the territory of Belize against the wishes of her Government, her people, the United Nations and the Commonwealth Prime Ministers?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will be meeting the Premier of Belize. I assure the House that the Premier and the Opposition in Belize have attended all the discussions that have taken place with Guatemala on the future of Belize and its attempt to secure independence. Everything that has happened in those negotiations is known to them. I indicated to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers at the conference in London last June that no decision would be taken without the full consent of the people of Belize. There is no need for alarm on this matter, despite the alarmist and untruthful headline that has appeared in one newspaper.
[column 1174]Mrs. Thatcher
I should like to return to the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts). Will James Callaghanthe Prime Minister explain why his policies have resulted not only in 1½ million people being out of work but in a large number of jobs for which skilled people are required but are not available? How has he managed to achieve the disastrous double of 1½ million unemployed and a shortage of skilled labour?
The Prime Minister
The Conservative Party's document “The Right Approach” , which I study with great care and frequency, told us that the fundamental weakness of the British economy in failing to be competitive was deep-seated and could not be removed in less than a decade. Therefore, as the right hon. Lady knows perfectly well, it is sheer party politics to suggest that the unemployment that is sweeping the Western world is due to the policies of Her Majesty's Government.
The right hon. Lady is misinformed about the last part of her question. I have had a number of inquiries made into the kind of statements made by the right hon. Lady about the shortage of skilled labour.
Mr. Tebbit
My right hon. Friend is always right. The right hon. Gentleman is always wrong.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) should cease to be the right hon. Lady's lapdog.
I have had a number of inquiries made into this matter. There have been specific examples of shortages of skilled men, but the result of the last inquiries that I made, which were literally only a week ago and were conducted on a pretty broad basis, is that, generally speaking, although there are specific shortages in a few areas, there is no overall shortage of skilled men. The Government's training programme—the largest such programme ever undertaken—is overhauling any specific shortages. That is one reason why the economy must be allowed to expand at a steady rate and not get into the spasm that we had during the early 1970's when we had the boom and bust. That is what I am determined to resist.
Mrs. Thatcher
Is the Prime Minister aware that, if our problems are deep-seated, one reason is that the Labour [column 1175]Party has been in power for 10 out of the last 13 years? Whatever excuses he may give, he cannot run away from the fact that our policies did not produce unemployment whereas his policies have. The right hon. Gentleman will go down in history as the Prime Minister of unemployment.
The Prime Minister
I do not know where the right hon. Lady found that last phrase, but I am sure it will get a headline somewhere. However, it will not alter the fundamental appreciation of the British people of the realities of the situation. If it is of any comfort to the right hon. Lady, I should like to make a prophecy. I have a feeling that we shall be in power for the next 10 years too.
Mr. Thorpe
I should like to revert to the Prime Minister's answer on Belize, to which the House listened with great interest. Is he able to go further and assert that Her Majesty's Government have no intention of ceding any part of existing Belizean territory either to Guatemala or to Mexico?
The Prime Minister
I do not want to go as far as that at the present time. [Hon. Members: “Oh.” ] We must pay some regard to the views of the Premier, as well as the Opposition, in Belize about its future. Therefore, it would be improper for the House of Commons to make a declaration on anything connected with this matter, except to say, as I have done and I repeat, that we want the agreement of the people of Belize before we take any action.
The problem is very difficult and it is right that the Government should attempt to solve it. Belize wants independence. If it became independent without a guaranteed border and a proper peace treaty with Guatemala, in view of the disparate size of the two countries Belize would be in great trouble.
Our objective is to try to bring that country to full independence as soon as we can in conditions that will guarantee its future. The Premier of Belize and his colleagues must consider and take their decision on those conditions. Clearly, it would be difficult to ask the House or the country to assume responsibility for the defence of Belize after it became independent. Therefore, we must try to secure its frontiers before it becomes independent.
[column 1176]Mr. Madden
Will my right hon. Friend take time to look at last year's trade figures, which in volume terms show that exports rose by 8 per cent. whereas imports rose by 14 per cent., thereby equalising the balance of payments gains from North Sea oil? Will he tell his Ministers this afternoon that much greater efforts must be made in import substitution if we are to reverse this trend?
The Prime Minister
I believe that the figures rose on manufactured, not total, imports. In fact, there was a balance heavily in favour of an increase in the volume of exports during that period, but we need to continue to increase it.
Mr. John Davies
I do not think that the Prime Minister's remarks about Belize entirely reassured the House. Will he categorically assure the House that there has been no negotiation to partition Belize among the neighbouring countries with the threat of refusing to defend that colony in the event of its not agreeing to such an arrangement?
The Prime Minister
I hope that the House will not be misled by the story which appeared in one newspaper this morning, part of which was totally untrue. The rest of it, when one read it carefully, was a sort of mood music piece. I have completely revealed to the House the discussions that are going on, the nature of the problem and the assurances that have been given. I ask the House to be satisfied with that.
TUC AND CBI
Q3. Mr. Molloy
asked the Prime Minister when he will next meet the TUC and CBI.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) on 10th November.
Mr. Molloy
When my right hon. Friend meets the CBI and the TUC, will he spell out in some detail the contributions and sacrifices made by ordinary working people through their trade unions in the fight against inflation, in contrast to the Conservative Party by its vote last night and its attitude to the Prices Bill? Will he particularly challenge the CBI [column 1177]to state where it stands? The attitude of the Tory Party seems to be to punish working people by increased prices because they put the national interest first.
The Prime Minister
It is true that the decisions taken by the trade unions and their members over the past three years, including the 12-month rule that they voluntarily adopted this year, have helped to reduce inflation substantially, but have reduced the standard of life. I am glad to say that in the fourth quarter of 1977 the standard of life of the British people, for the first time for some time—[Interruption.]—since 1975—began to improve and will continue to improve. That will continue during 1978, so I shall certainly take the opportunity of spelling it out on every occasion.
We all know what the Tory attitude is. Indeed, I was wondering this morning whether I could possibly devise, in addition to the retail price index, the TPI—or Tory Party index—to be published every month to indicate the result of the Tory Party's vote last night.
Mr. Charles Morrison
When the Prime Minister next meets the TUC, will he explain one of the realities of the present unemployment situation—namely, that our unemployment is now worse, according to a recent parliamentary answer, than it is in France, West Germany, Italy and the United States? Can he say why that is?
The Prime Minister
If one went back a decade, one would find that unemployment in this country has usually been higher than that of the Federal Republic or of France because the causes are deep-seated. But we are now overcoming that. I am glad to say that the country has shed much of the belief that there is some magic key that can be turned to make this country competitive with others. I believe that both sides of industry now understand what needs to be done and, what is more, that they are turning their attention to doing what is necessary. I hope that I carry the Conservatives with me on that, because that is the way to overcome unemployment.