CBI
Q1. Mr. Michael Latham
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the CBI.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) on 10th November.
Mr. Latham
Is it not an interesting example of the social contract and “Back to Work with Labour” that the Secretary of State for Transport has apparently been urging a CBI member, the Road Haulage Association, to set up a defence fund to resist a possible strike by Jack Jones's union? Is that the Labour Party's new industrial relations policy?
[column 909]The Prime Minister
When I last met the CBI and talked to the President, he made quite clear that the CBI believes that everything depends upon beating inflation. That is what the actions of my right hon. Friend are directed to.
Mr. Grocott
Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity today to discuss with anyone interested in industrial relations the persistent evidence of this century that the higher echelons of the judiciary are anti-Labour and anti-union? Does he agree that until the judiciary comes less from a privileged and wealthy elite and becomes more representative of the public that prejudice will continue?
The Prime Minister
I did not discuss that matter with the CBI and have no intention of doing so. It does not arise out of the Question. If there is any comment to be made about the judiciary, the normal course is to put it on the Order Paper. That is the procedure which I should recommend in such cases. But I also recommend to the House that we should beware of trying to embroil the judiciary in our affairs, with the corresponding caveat that the judiciary should be very careful about embroiling itself in the Legislature.
Mrs. Thatcher
May I refer back to James Callaghanthe Prime Minister's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Melton (Mr. Latham)? Is he really saying that it is the Government's new policy to encourage solidarity among employers, as a means of fighting off wage claims by trade unions?
The Prime Minister
I encourage solidarity among everybody in the country, because I believe that national effort and common understanding are the best ways in which we can ensure that the scourge of inflation does not return. I wish that the right hon. Lady, now and again, would show a little more understanding.
Mrs. Thatcher
So the answer to my question is “Yes” .
Welling, Kent
Q2. Mr. Townsend
asked the Prime Minister if he has any plans to visit Welling, Kent.
[column 910]The Prime Minister
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. Townsend
Is the Prime Minister aware that yesterday one of his Ministers decided to close down the last two remaining hospitals in my constituency? Why are so many so-called cottage hospitals, many of which are highly efficient and well modernised, being closed down at a time when Ministers are calling for more community care?
The Prime Minister
With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think that it would be preferable if he would table a question of that sort to the Secretary of State for Social Services. There is a well-known policy for building district hospitals. It has been discussed and debated in the House many times. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise a particular matter I suggest that he table a Question to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Faulds
If my right hon. Friend gets on the wrong train when he does not intend to go to Welling and by some fortunate mischance lands up in Smethwick, will he make a speech there roundly condemning the racialist nonsense and the Nazi nature of the National Front? I can assure him of a very sympathetic hearing from the moderate and tolerant people of the West Midlands.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has always been in the forefront in condemnation of this sort. I reiterate how pleased I am that the broadcast undertaken on behalf of the Labour Party last week has aroused such public interest, and, I am glad to say, some controversy, too, because it is as well that our attitudes should be clearly out in the open and that we should understand where we are. All my hon. Friends and I stand against racialism of any description at any time and in any place.
Mr. Fairbairn
When the Prime Minister is on his way to Welling, by whatever means, or to Smethwick, will he take time to read the rather seedy news-letter of the Scottish National Party, called “Focus” , in which the views of our Ambassador in Washington, whom he may know, and who is what I believe is called an economist, are prayed in aid of the Scottish National Party? It says that Scotland should have an independent [column 911]monetary system and an independent exchange as the foundation stone of the benefits that Scotland is about to enjoy. Does the Prime Minister agree with those views, and does he think it right that the Ambassador in Washington should air them, or does he think that the Scottish National Party is taking advantage of this poor, underprivileged youth?
The Prime Minister
I am sure that the Ambassador in Washington is capable of looking after himself against the hon. and learned Gentleman at any time. As for the general sentiments expressed by the hon. and learned Gentleman, for once I find myself in agreement with him.
Prime Minister
(Engagements)
Q3. Mr. Wyn Roberts
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his engagements for 15th December.
The Prime Minister
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
Mr. Roberts
Can the Prime Minister confirm today's Press report that the Government already have the Frolik tapes, which the Lord President seemed to know so little about last night? Secondly, does he agree that it would be right and fair to have an independent inquiry, so that those named can have an opportunity of clearing themselves?
The Prime Minister
As is well known in the House, there is no ministerial responsibility for Press reports and Ministers are not required to answer for them. I was extremely surprised by the allegations made in the House yesterday. The hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings) said that he had been considering the matter for months. It is a well-known convention in this House—and it is usually accepted, although not by one or two hon. Members—that hon. Members do not raise these matters across the Floor of the House unless there has been previous discussion. I can tell the House that the hon. Gentleman at no time made any approach to me on this matter.
The general allegations have, of course, been floating around since January 1974[column 912]—nearly four years ago. They have been investigated in the past I have no comment to make on the allegations, except to say that I think it disgraceful that members of the public should be put at risk in this way by such allegations, made without any reliable support.
Mr. Heffer
Has my right hon. Friend had the opportunity to read Mr. Andrew Alexander 's column in the Daily Mail today, which, quite rightly, says that the speech by the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings) was very silly? I think that that is the context in which it ought to be left.
The Prime Minister
Perhaps it was a silly speech, but it was calculated to do a lot of damage, and deliberately to do damage. Otherwise, if it had been intended to be raised to protect national security, I believe that the hon. Member would have come to me privately, expressed his views and asked me to investigate the matter. The matter could then have been cleared up. In fact, of course, these matters were looked into years ago—two or three years ago. What has been happening recently is that Mr. Frolik has been embroidering the original stories that he told when he was debriefed some years ago. It is a way of keeping himself in the public eye, and from time to time he manages to get some Press interest and to catch one or two Conservative Members.
Mr. Hastings
Will the Prime Minister accept that I make no apology whatsoever for raising this matter? Does he agree that the only way to restore public confidence is to set up an independent inquiry, as asked for by my hon. Friend the Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts), whose supplementary question he has not answered? Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that I shall make all material in my hands available to such an inquiry?
The Prime Minister
Knowing him, I would not expect the hon. Gentleman to make an apology. But what I do say is that if he has any information, as he now says he has, he should have done the proper thing and communicated it to me instead of making allegations across the Floor of the House in the way that he did, skulking behind parliamentary privilege to attack people outside.
[column 913]European Community
(Summit)
Q4. Mr. Corbett
asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the European Summit meeting.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friend to the statement that I made on 7th December.
Mr. Corbett
Can my right hon. Friend say something more about the steps to be taken soon in an attempt to cut down the appallingly high levels of unemployment in all of the Community countries, especially among young people? Would he also elaborate on what he said in his reference to something more having to be done in the public employment sector? When may a start be made on that?
The Prime Minister
It so happens that the Secretary of State for Employment is in Paris today meeting his Community colleagues, who are also Ministers of labour and employment, to discuss this very question of youth unemployment. I am very glad indeed to be able to say that between September and November youth unemployment in this country fell by nearly 100,000. In September, it was 166,000. In November it was 68,000. As for public employment, I have nothing that I can add at this stage to what I said two or three days ago.
Mr. Tebbit
During the Summit meeting, did the Prime Minister manage to discover from the French President why, since February 1974, prices have risen twice as much in Great Britain as they have in France, and why unemployment has risen much more than in France? When speaking to the President, did the Prime Minister take any pride in the fact that Britain is at the top, or the bottom, according to which way one looks at it, of the league—in other words, worse on prices and worse on unemployment than any other member of the Community?
The Prime Minister
I did not discuss 1974 with the President because the reason is well known—that the Conservative Administration allowed the money supply to get totally out of control. Whereas when we came into office the M3 figure—which is the index frequently used—was over 27 per cent., as the hon. Gentleman may have seen from statistics which were [column 914]published at 2.30 p.m. today, it is now down to 13.4 per cent. and will keep within the 9 per cent. to 13 per cent level. Therefore, we do not have far to seek for the reasons for inflation. The hon. Gentleman, unusually, is getting a little behind the times, because the level of inflation in this country next year is likely to be as good as that of France, and may well be better.
Mr. Spearing
Did my right hon. Friend discuss with his colleagues at the Summit the new powers of the European Assembly exercised under Articles 203 and 204 of the Treaty of Rome? Has he seen the reports of the success of the Assembly in screwing more money out of the Council of Ministers in Strasbourg this week? Does not this exercise of the Assembly's powers show that there is already a federal element in it and, therefore, that direct elections would bring us into a federal structure, which my right hon. Friend denies exists?
The Prime Minister
I do not think that this long-running debate to which my hon. Friend is obsessively attached will ever be settled by question and answer in the House of Commons. My general conclusion, in answer to his supplementary question, is to say “No, Sir”
Mr. Peter Walker
Is the Prime Minister aware that while youth unemployment as a whole, under this Government, has doubled, the unemployment of young West Indians has increased sixfold? When is he going to do something to tackle that problem?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman is right to focus public attention on these matters, which are of great concern and to which we should all direct our attention. The West Indians concerned are mostly in areas in which it is more difficult to get jobs, and the Secretary of State for Employment has been making special inquiries and seeking to undertake special action. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the attention that he directs to this problem.
Mr. Fernyhough
Reverting to the supplementary question by the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit), can my right hon. Friend explain why, if what the hon. Gentleman says is true—that French prices are so much lower than ours—boatloads of French people come to this [column 915]country every weekend to buy goods and stores?
The Prime Minister
It was certainly true during the past 12 months, but I have a feeling that it will not be true next year, because the level of inflation in this country is likely to be level with that of France, give or take a point or two.