DUBLIN
Q1. Mr. Townsend
asked the Prime Minister if he has any plans to visit Dublin.
[column 1745]The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. Townsend
Will the Prime Minister explain to Mr. Lynch that any call from the Irish Government for a long-term British disengagement from the North would only intensify and prolong the current IRA campaign in the North?
The Prime Minister
I am not going to Dublin, but I think that on the last occasion when the Taoiseach and I met we discussed these matters, and the communiqué that was published afterwards represented our views very clearly.
Mr. Kilfedder
Will the Prime Minister ask Mr. Lynch to review immediately the situation in which Provisional IRA members wanted for crimes in Northern Ireland are not extradited from the Republic, despite the fact, for instance, that the Republic has successfully sought the extradition from Holland of an alleged IRA member who was wanted on a charge of attempted armed robbery?
The Prime Minister
I am not going to Dublin, but it is the case that the Government of the Republic have taken action in certain very serious cases—including one in particular that is in everyone's mind—and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so.
EUROPEAN COMMUNITY HEADS OF GOVERNMENT
Q2. Mr. Watkinson
asked the Prime Minister when he next plans to meet the Heads of State of the EEC.
The Prime Minister
I expect to meet His Majesty The King of the Belgians and the President of the French Republic, as well as the Heads of Government of other EEC countries, on the occasion of the meeting of the European Council in Brussels on 5th and 6th December.
Mr. Watkinson
When my right hon. Friend next meets the Heads of State, will he stress not only the material benefits of reforming the CAP but the political benefits of the early admission of Greece, Portugal and Spain? Does he agree that Mediterranean democracy would benefit from this, as would the development of a non-federalist Europe?
[column 1746]The Prime Minister
On many occasions the Government have made their position clear to the Heads of Government of Greece, Spain and Portugal, namely, that we would welcome their accession to the Community. We believe that it would be a means of strengthening democracy in those countries. We believe that it would also be for the benefit of democracy in Europe as a whole as well as for the material well-being of the citizens of those countries.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths
Since the House last night decisively rejected the proposition for proportional representation in respect of Scotland, will the Prime Minister pursue that principle in respect of Europe? When he meets his EEC colleagues, will he explain to them that, while he has taken no notice of the Liberals in respect of devolution on this matter, he will equally take no notice of them in respect of proportional representation in European elections?
The Prime Minister
No, Sir. I do not think we can draw a parallel line between what happens on devolution in Scotland, and the method of election there, and what happens in the EEC.
Mr. Molloy
When the Prime Minister meets the Heads of Government of the EEC States, will he point out to them today's announcement of the increase in the volume of investment in United Kingdom manufacturing, distributive and service industries, which is quite remarkable?
The Prime Minister
I shall have great pleasure in looking up those figures and in indicating to the Heads of Government what I know is the case—I think the whole House will welcome it—that there has been a substantial increase in the level of investment both in manufacturing industry and in the service industries in the third quarter of 1977. I hope that that will continue to be the case in the months ahead. I believe that the increase is particularly pleasing in plant and machinery.
Mr. Hordern
As the Prime Minister told the Heads of State in Europe that he would use his best endeavours to get direct elections to the European Parliament, will he give the House a categoric assurance that all his Ministers will be voting for the Bill tonight?
[column 1747]The Prime Minister
I suggest that the hon. Gentleman waits until 10 o'clock.
Mr. Skinner
Does my right hon. Friend agree that he has always taken a slightly less pro-Market stance than many of his colleagues, which certainly does not compare with the pro-European party opposite? In view of that, why has he found it necessary to change the free vote that we had last July on direct elections to one in which Ministers are being placed in the predicament that some of them will be in tonight? Is it purely because of Liberal support? If that is the case, he has no need to worry about them. They are frightened to death of an election at any time.
The Prime Minister
Nobody need be in any predicament tonight. They are all Members of this House. But the policy of the Government is quite clear and has been stated by me on behalf of the Cabinet.
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
Q3. Mr. Nicholas Winterton
asked the Prime Minister if he will dismiss the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Member may assume that I do not intend to make any changes in ministerial appointments or responsibilities—including my taking on any of the existing responsibilities of other Ministers—unless and until I make a statement to the contrary.
Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you will allow me to add that that is hoped to be a total and comprehensive blocking answer.
Mr. Winterton
Will the Prime Minister reconsider his decision in view of his right hon. Friend's policy of virtually ignoring the responsible nationalists within Rhodesia, his obsession with the Patriotic Front and its guerilla forces, and his apparent refusal and reluctance to support an internal settlement in Rhodesia based on adult universal suffrage?
The Prime Minister
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman can really take that view, considering that my right hon. Friend spent two and a half hours yesterday with Mr. James Chikerema, who represents Bishop Muzorewa.
[column 1748]Mr. Winterton
What did he say?
The Prime Minister
What he said is a different matter. The hon. Gentleman was asking me why he was ignored, and one cannot ignore someone and spend two and a half hours with him.
As to the obsession with the Patriotic Front, it is the case—as hon. Gentlemen frequently remind me—that the Patriotic Front is carrying on guerilla activity. It is, therefore, realistic to discuss these matters with the Patriotic Front. The policy of the Government is quite clear on these matters. We expect an election to be held. We are not choosing between African leaders. It is for the people of Rhodesia themselves to do that.
Mr. John Mendelson
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in contrast to the silly allegations that we have heard from the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) about the Foreign Secretary, in his work on Rhodesia the Foreign Secretary has been the first Minister for a long time to succeed in bringing some movement into this really difficult question, and that he has, above all, gained the co-operation and respect of the American Administration in that work? Therefore, may I put this silly question to a serious purpose by asking the Prime Minister whether any progress is to be reported in the efforts of the Foreign Secretary in bringing about a solution in not only Rhodesia but Namibia?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is quite right. There has been considerable movement in Rhodesia on these matters. That is to be welcomed, and the support of the American Administration is particularly important in this regard. In the case of Namibia, progress is being made, although it is not being finalised as I should like to see it.
We could make even further progress in Rhodesia if the African leaders there, whether they belong to Bishop Muzorewa 's, Mr. Mugabe 's, Mr. Nkomo 's or anybody else's group, were to come together to form a common front. At the moment, their rivalries are holding up the securing of a transfer of responsibility from Mr. Smith to the African people.
Mr. Churchill
As the principal interest of the Soviet Union in Central Africa in recent years has been to finance, train and arm forces of terrorism, will the [column 1749]Prime Minister now categorically repudiate the unctuous and treacherous remarks made by the Foreign Secretary on his arrival in Moscow, about Britain's interests being identical to those of Russia?
Mr. Speaker
Order. The use of the word “treacherous” is unparliamentary.
Mr. Churchill
With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the word “treacherous” . However, will the Prime Minister now repudiate——
Mr. Speaker
Order. We have had the question.
MOSCOW
Q4. Mr. Rifkind
asked the Prime Minister whether he will seek to pay an official visit to Moscow.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) on 8th November.
Mr. Rifkind
As the Prime Minister is not actually going to Moscow, will he now take the opportunity to answer my hon. Friend's question whether he agrees with the Foreign Secretary's remarks in Moscow about the interests of the Soviet Union being the same as those of the United Kingdom?
The Prime Minister
The Soviet Union, as a member of the Security Council, did not cast a vote against the Anglo-American initiative. That was very helpful, and it was that to which my right hon. Friend's remarks were related. I should add that before the initiative was taken I corresponded with General Secretary Brezhnev on the issue, explained to him that it was a serious initiative, and asked that the Soviet Union should consider it in that light and not as a propaganda device.
I believe that as a result of that correspondence the Soviet Union took what was perhaps the unusual course of not opposing the intiative and of allowing it to go forward. Therefore, I feel that my right hon. Friend was quite right to express his appreciation of that decision.
Mr. Greville Janner
Will my right hon. Friend protest to the Soviet authorities at [column 1750]the continued detention of Yuri Orlov, Anatoli Sharanski, and of all those others detained for their attachment to human rights, and at the treatment of Academician Sakharov, one of the greatest leaders in the world today?
The Prime Minister
The policy of Her Majesty's Government on that matter has been made very clear by the Foreign Secretary on numerous occasions. The policy remains the same as it was.
Mrs. Thatcher
Will James Callaghanthe Prime Minister give the House an assurance that there can be no successful conclusion to the Belgrade review of the Helsinki Agreements until those in Russia whose only offence was to monitor the agreements are released from detention?
The Prime Minister
I share the concern, which is widely felt throughout the House and the country, about certain cases. The Government have made a number of representations on the matter from time to time. At the Belgrade meeting the Western Powers as a whole made their position clear. It has not been met by an adequate response from the Soviet Union, and we shall continue to make representations in the way that we think is likely to be most effective. As I explained to the right hon. Lady on previous occasions—I think she accepts this—for the Government to make public denunciations is not always the best way to secure the release to which my hon. and learned Friend refers. Sometimes that can be helpful; at other times it is better to do it privately. But that is no reason why any private citizen in this country should restrain himself from making his position clear.
Mr. Kinnock
Does my right hon. Friend accept that a good definition of the word “treacherous” might be “an hon. Member who goes to Rhodesia and gives aid and comfort to an enemy of the Crown, Ian Smith” , as did the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton)?
Mr. Speaker
Order. I hope that we can use Question Time constructively, rather than throwing accusations from one side to the other on this matter. I pulled up the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) and I hope that the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) will remember what I said.
[column 1751]Mr. Kinnock
My point was entirely constructive—I assure you of that, Mr. Speaker. May I ask my right hon. Friend clearly to demonstrate—whether it is to be in public or in private—that we on the Government side of the House do not discriminate in the cause of human liberty between those who abuse it in Rhodesia and those who abuse it in Rhodesia and those who subordinate it in Russia, and that consequently the proper posture for the Foreign Secretary of this country, the people of this country and the democratic Socialist movement of this country to adopt is to assert that cause of freedom anywhere in the world, in any country and against any tyrant?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend and many others of my hon. Friends on the Back Benches have made their position clear on many occasions in relation to the situation in the Soviet Union and in Chile, Rhodesia and South Africa. I am not aware of any distinction. I hope that Opposition Members will make their position equally clear in relation to Rhodesia, in respect of which they seem to be extremely tender.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I ask you to ask the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) to withdraw the accusations that he made against me in respect of the visit that I paid to Rhodesia.
Mr. Speaker
If the hon. Gentleman had identified any hon. Member I would most certainly insist on the accusation being withdrawn. I understood that he was using his words in a general argument. But the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) can clear the matter up in a second, if he makes it clear that he is not accusing anyone in this House of treachery.
Mr. Kinnock
In one second. I was using a definition of the word “treacherous” , and there appeared to be a practical example at hand.
Mr. Speaker
Order. This is not a matter for argument across the Floor. The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to accuse anyone in this House of being treacherous, and if he has done so I shall request him to withdraw his accusation.
Mr. Kinnock
In matters such as this, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that you would [column 1752]acknowledge—[Interruption.]—the defenders of free speech——
Mr. Speaker
The hon. Gentleman must be allowed to make himself clear, but I hope that he is not going to pursue an argument on the matter.
Mr. Kinnock
I think the best guide for my conduct on this subject, Mr. Speaker—though I would not dream of suggesting it to you—is that if caps are felt to fit, it is not an abuse; if they do not fit, the allegation is inaccurately made. If the cap does not fit, I withdraw the offer of the cap.
Mr. Speaker
Order. I accept the hon. Gentleman's withdrawal.