Speeches, etc.

Margaret Thatcher

HC I Committee [Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill] (call for statement on security services)

Document type: Speeches, interviews, etc.
Venue: House of Commons
Source: Hansard HC [936/1372-75]
Editorial comments: Around 1329-1339. MT’s Point of Order had no relation to the business under discussion and so the earlier part of this debate on Clause 1 of the Consolidated Fund Bill has been omitted.
Importance ranking: Minor
Word count: 1061
Themes: Labour Party & socialism, Security services & intelligence
[column 1372]

Mr. Tebbit

May I draw my hon. Friend's attention to what is happening behind the Chair? The Prime Minister has now come to the House, and I have no doubt that he wishes to make a statement.

1.30 p.m.

Mrs. Margaret Thatcher (Finchley)

On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. May I seek your guidance? Has any request been received from the Government to make a statement on the matters which have previously been raised concerning allegations made against the security services? We think it vital that such a statement should be made before the Summer Recess, for the confidence and [column 1373]morale of the security services and because it would appear that there may, on the face of it, be some infringements of the Official Secrets Act. S. SilkinThe Attorney-General may also wish to make a statement.

I should be grateful if hon. Members could know whether any such application has been received, because on the Conservative side we think it important that these most serious allegations should be replied to by a statement from the Government before the House rises for the Summer Recess.

The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)

Further to the point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. I am not at all sure that it is a point of order, but that is for you, Mr. Godman Irvine. A great many matters are being written and spoken about at the present time, but there is very little hard fact, as far as I can see. If anyone who has any information about what has taken place cares to place it before the appropriate authority—who in this case would be the Home Secretary—then, of course, the matter will be looked into. As to the present situation, I am quite satisfied with the arrangements at No. 10 and with what is going on in the security services.

Mrs. Thatcher

Further to the point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. I am very happy that James Callaghanthe Prime Minister has expressed his full confidence in the security services. I believe that is what he has said. May I ask him, as head of the security services——

Mr. George Cunningham

We normally do not discuss these things.

Mrs. Thatcher

How much more important is it that Harold Wilsona former Prime Minister should not discuss these things? May I therefore ask the Prime Minister—because it is important that we should know—whether it is a fact that a former Prime Minister gave an interview to journalists about matters affecting the security services?

The Prime Minister

With respect, it was primarily a point of order. It is quite clear that I cannot answer as to what interviews have been given by any hon. Member to anybody else. That is certainly not my responsibility. But I repeat that if anyone has any information [column 1374]that he cares to place before me or before the Home Secretary about the operation of the security services, the facts will be looked into. My responsibility is to make sure that these matters are now properly conducted. That I have done.

Mrs. Thatcher

Further to the point of order——

The Second Deputy Chairman

Order. At the moment the House is in Committee and it is discussing Clause 1 of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill. At the moment it seems to me that we are straying a little out of order on that. If we are to have a general debate or discussion, or even a statement, we shall first have to dispose of Clause 1 and have an undertaking that the matter will be discussed on some other occasion.

Mrs. Thatcher

As it would appear that the Government are refusing to make any official statement on this matter, Mr. Godman Irvine, may I therefore take it that the Prime Minister is refusing to question the previous Prime Minister about whether he gave an interview to two journalists affecting the security services? If such an interview was given, will the Prime Minister kindly refer that matter to the Attorney-General?

The Second Deputy Chairman

Order. If there is nothing further to be said, we are back on Clause 1, and only matters relevant to Clause 1 of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill can be discussed.

Mr. Mates

rose——

Mr. Cormack

On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. Would it be in order for us to dispose very quickly of the Bill, which I am sure we should like to do? Then the Committee could end, the House could sit, and we would have the opportunity of hearing the Prime Minister again.

The Second Deputy Chairman

If it would be of any assistance, I think that the matter could be very quickly disposed of.

Mr. Peter Blaker (Blackpool, South)

On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine, Am I correct in understanding you to say that this matter is not in order within Clause 1?

[column 1375]

The Second Deputy Chairman

I have ruled on that already. I have no doubt that we could dispose of the Bill very quickly, if the Committee were so minded, but at the moment we are discussing Clause 1.

Mr. Mates

On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. We seem to have strayed a little. You have been very strong in keeping me to order, but you did indicate—if I may put it to you before I sit down—that when we came to Clause 2 various matters could be specifically raised. One of them is the allotment of funds. I am simply asking you help so that we can correct the strange situation——

The Second Deputy Chairman

Order. The hon. Gentleman has asked my help on a number of occasions. I have done my best to help him. The best help that I can now give him is to advice him that we are dealing with Clause 1.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.