CBI
Q1. Mr. Cartwright
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the CBI.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Thornaby (Mr. Wrigglesworth) on 17th February.
Mr. Cartwright
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the much more optimistic forecast from the CBI this week, the substantial improvement in official reserves and the prospects for a stable pound and stable interest rates mean that the prospects for production investment are better than they have been for a long time? Will he therefore press the CBI to seek to persuade firms to bring forward investment programmes so that industry can give a lead in the programme of national recovery for which my right hon. Friend called at the weekend?
The Prime Minister
The reserve figures announced yesterday were at a record level. That is a sign of stability. The most encouraging aspect of the CBI trends is the reference to the fact that the CBI expects the rate of increase in prices to slow down towards the end of the year. That is something that I have been saying for some time, and I am glad that the CBI's views coincide with mine. [Interruption.] I hope that the Opposition are also pleased about it.
On investment prospects, I certainly hope that the CBI will continue to encourage new investment. The forecasts for 1978 are good and the indicators generally are moving in the right direction. However, that does not mean that there are not—as I said at the weekend—a number of serious problems that we must face and overcome. Nevertheless, the indicators are pointing the right way.
Mr. Peter Bottomley
Can the Prime Minister tell the CBI what level of pay settlements during the next 12 months is consistent with decelerating inflation?
The Prime Minister
No. We have not discussed figures with the CBI on that matter, although discussions are now going on with the TUC.
[column 1109]Mr. MacFarquhar
Could my right hon. Friend arrange a meeting between the Opposition Front Bench and Lord Watkinson, so that Lord Watkinson can tell them about his prognostications for the next decade, which coincide so closely with those of the Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister
Lord Watkinson is not an utter stranger to those on the Opposition Front Bench, and he will no doubt be supplying the same information to them as he does to us.
Mr. Budgen
Does the Prime Minister agree that it ought to be no part of a politician's job to seek to encourage or discourage investment? Should not investment be decided by individual entrepreneurs according to their assessment of the profitability of each act of investment?
The Prime Minister
No. I understand that that is the Opposition view, but I do not know what would have happened to Wales or Scotland during the past 20 years if that doctrine had been followed. In broad terms, of course, individual entrepreneurs will take their own decisions on profitability and they will also decide on what they expect to be the prospects for the economy as a whole and for reasonable expansion. It is the duty of all politicians to place in front of them the best assessment they can make about how the economy is likely to go in future.
NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COUNCIL
Q2. Mr. Mike Thomas
asked the Prime Minister when he last took the chair at NEDC.
The Prime Minister
I last took the chair at NEDC on 2nd February. In addition, on 22nd June I took the chair at a conference of representatives from the sector working parties and the economic development committees on the industrial strategy. This conference enabled the Government to hear the views of more than 100 leading trade unionists and managers. Strong support was expressed for the industrial strategy and there was discussion about such matters as overseas markets, import substitution, investment and productivity, relations between customers and users [column 1110]and communication at company level. Another similar conference will be held on 11th July.
Mr. Thomas
In regard to the power plant sector, on which my right hon. Friend has no doubt heard the views of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions about the prospects for a GEC monopoly of the industry, is he aware that his halo over Drax B is, like all haloes, only nine inches away from becoming a noose? In view of the urgency of the situation, will he give a firm undertaking that the Government will reach a decision on this much-prevaricated matter before the impending redundancies at C. A. Parsons and Babcock and Wilcox are implemented?
The Prime Minister
There is an important difference of opinion here. The GEC management, the National Enterprise Board, the CPRS and the Government all take the view that the industry should be restructured if it is to have a long-term future. My hon. Friend is vehemently opposed to that and is supporting the workers of Parsons and the unions involved. However, that does not alter the nature of the argument and the Government must look at the long-term interests. We cannot enforce such a restructuring. I am glad that it is going ahead on the boiler-making side, but my hon. Friend has not been able to persuade his constituents in Parsons—if he has tried—that a similar restructuring of the turbo-generator side would be in their interests. As he has not done that and the Government cannot do it, we shall have to consider the future of Parsons against the present position and announce our decision as soon as we have reached a conclusion.
Mr. Tim Renton
What positive contribution to industrial investment is being made by the sector working parties? Are not at least some of them simply talking shops?
The Prime Minister
With respect to the hon. Gentleman, he is doing less than justice to the large numbers on both sides of industry who are giving their time voluntarily to these matters.
Mr. Powell
They are wasting their time.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman may think so but the people [column 1111]involved do not, and it is their time and not the time of the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Adley
They are fiddling like Nero.
The Prime Minister
The Opposition are barking up the wrong tree, or down the wrong alley, on this subject. I should like to encourage the Opposition to take off their party spectacles and look at the issues properly. At the conference that I held, the managers, industrialists and trade unionists involved all believed that it was worth while and should be carried down to company level. I expect to find a similar view on 11th July, and I should be happy if someone from the Opposition Front Bench would come to some of these conferences. He or she might learn one or two things.
Mr. Ashley
Is my right hon. Friend aware that his own talking shop on industrial relations is one of the finest in the world, bringing together, as it does, employers and trade unions in a period of very grave industrial turbulence? He is to be congratulated on that because the present deadly situation can be solved only by the mixture of flexibility and firmness at which my right hon. Friend is so adept. Does he agree that if the Tories, with their dogmatic rigidity, returned to power, the country would be in an appalling industrial mess?
The Prime Minister
I accept what my hon. Friend has said and I wish that the Opposition would do the same. Looking at the analysis of the conclusions reached at my last meeting, I see that every subject was introduced either by a leading figure in the industry on the management side or by a leading trade unionist. They put forward a number of valuable suggestions and commented on what they were doing and what the Government should be doing. All these things help to promote the better atmosphere that British industry needs in order to get higher productivity. I hope that the Opposition will realise this and will join in.
PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
Q3. Mr. Rifkind
asked the Prime Minister whether he will list his official engagements for 5th July.
[column 1112]The Prime Minister
In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.
Mr. Rifkind
Will the Prime Minister spend some time today discussing with Mr. Roy Jenkins his speech at the weekend in which he accused certain members of the Government of seeking to subvert the voice of the British people as expressed in the referendum on the Common Market? Does the Prime Minister agree with that view expressed by a former Foreign Secretary and Deputy-Leader of the Labour Party?
The Prime Minister
Among my many duties, I do not have to take responsibility for speeches made by the President of the Commission.
Mr. Buchan
Reverting to the Prime Minister's earlier answer, may I ask whether he will have time today to meet his ministerial colleagues in relation to the Drax B order? Is he aware that the delay is becoming unbearable and that, while we accept his concern for the long-term future of the industry, if the order is not placed quickly there will be no industry left? Can he, therefore, take the chance today to knock the heads of his ministerial colleagues together and get a decision?
The Prime Minister
I cannot undertake to do that today.
Mr. Mike Thomas
How about tomorrow?
The Prime Minister
Not even tomorrow. The problem must be properly processed. I regret very much that the restructuring of the industry seems unlikely to go ahead. I do not believe that this is in the best interest of the people working in the industry, and in five years' time they may come to regret the obduracy being shown on this matter. The CEGB will have to consider the ordering programme. The Government are in touch with the Board on that matter and we shall have to reach a conclusion as soon as we can. I do not want anyone to lose his job, but I am bound to say to the handful of my hon. Friends who share the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrewshire, [column 1113]West (Mr. Buchan) that Drax B will not prove the salvation of this firm.
Mrs. Thatcher
As one of James Callaghanthe Prime Minister's official engagements today is answering Questions, will he take time to repudiate the view contained in a recent article written by his hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell), who said that his views were virtually indistinguishable from those of the Communist Party except in one particular—namely, that he did not rule out civil war as a means of keeping Socialism in power?
The Prime Minister
If I were to spend time answering questions about every speech made by every public figure in this country, I should never do anything else. If I were asked to make a marginal comment on the speech of my hon. Friend—and I wish to say nothing unkind in his absence—I should say that I have always regarded him as a philosophical revolutionary rather than one who really understands how a machine gun works.
Mrs. Thatcher
So the Prime Minister does not repudiate—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker
Order. Hon. Members expect to be heard when they are called.
Mrs. Thatcher
So the Prime Minister does not repudiate that view but is content to rely on the support of such fellow travellers to keep him in power?
The Prime Minister
I could, of course, give the right hon. Lady my views on these matters, but unfortunately I do not seem able to endow her with a sense of humour.
Mr. David Steel
Will the Prime Minister have time today to follow the deliberations of the conference of the National Union of Mineworkers? Since he referred at the weekend to one man's excessive wage demand being another man's ticket to the dole queue, will he comment on the deliberations and the decisions that the members of the NUM appear to be taking against the advice of their president?
The Prime Minister
It would be imprudent for me to comment, in the [column 1114]middle of the conference, on decisions that are just coming over the tape. There is too much instant comment demanded of all public figures, and we might sometimes take a little time to reflect on what has been said.
Mr. Heffer
Will my right hon. Friend, in giving advice to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell), take a little time to give advice to the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition, who apparently fails to understand that Adam Smith contributed a great deal to Marxist ideas? Is he aware that Adam Smith, together with Ricardo, was one of those who developed the Labour theory on values, which was a contribution that was taken up by Marx and developed further? Perhaps the right hon. Lady should understand a little more about Marxism before she becomes involved in something that she obviously knows little about.
The Prime Minister
I am looking forward to studying the speech that the right hon. Lady made yesterday. I hope to cull a few quotations from it to adorn future speeches. As for the relationship between Adam Smith, Marx, Ricardo, Malthus, John Stuart Mill and all those other great figures who have contributed, I do not wish to denigrate any of them but I must remind my hon. Friend that it was Morgan Phillips who said that the Labour movement owed more to John Wesley than it did to Marx.