PRIME MINISTER
(ENGAGEMENTS)
19. Mr. Hannam
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 12th May 1977.
25. Mr. Greville Janner
asked the Prime Minister what are his official engagements for 12th May.
26. Mr. Ashley
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 12th May.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including one with the Writers' Guild of Great Britain. This evening I shall be holding a reception at No. 10 Downing Street in honour of delegates to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Parliamentary Seminar.
[column 1544]Mr. Hannam
Will the Prime Minister find an opportunity to state why he finds it necessary to replace our existing excellent Ambassador in the United States? Does this mean a return to his predecessor's system of domestic patronage?
The Prime Minister
No. It is in accord with appointments made on many occasions since the war. I have looked up the records and I see that since 1948 there have been eight ambassadors to the United States, of whom four have been non-political appointments and four non-career appointments. This appointment is in accordance with that.
Mr. Janner
As the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference is now less than one month away, can the Prime Minister say who he expects to attend and who he expects not to attend?
The Prime Minister
I regret to say that I do not have a list yet from the Commonwealth Secretary-General as to who will be here or who has accepted his invitation. I am watching the situation very carefully.
Mr. Ashley
On the question of the new Ambassador to Washington, will the Prime Minister agree that this appointment recognises brains and ability rather than orthodoxy and docility? Had the appointment been that of a diplomat, there would have been no complaints from either side of the House. Does my right hon. Friend recall that, had President kennedy succumbed to charges and paid any attention to jibes about relatives and daughters, the American people would never have enjoyed the services of Robert Kennedy?
The Prime Minister
I have read the newspapers and heard the criticisms that have been made. I considered this proposal when it was put in front of me, and the easiest course would have been to say “No” . [Hon. Members: “Why didn't you?” ] That is a matter of judgment, and it could be said that my judgment is wrong. It would have been easy to say “No” . I considered the matter, but in view of Mr. Jay 's qualities and high calibre—of which I have seen no criticism at all—I believe that this is an imaginative appointment. The only question is whether I was right in my [column 1545]judgment and whether, because he is my son-in-law, I should have refused the appointment. Frankly, I thought that if that was the only ground for my saying “No” , I had no right to do so. My judgment may have been at fault, but that is the basis on which I approved the appointment.
Sir A. Meyer
There are many of us on this side of the House who welcome this evidence of the Prime Minister's determination to strengthen and develop the personal relationship with President Carter. However, is the Prime Minister satisfied that the exceptional talents of Sir Peter Ramsbotham will find a full outlet as Governor of Bermuda?
The Prime Minister
Sir Peter has served with distinction and I have no criticism to make of him. Indeed, when I became Foreign Secretary he was on the point of taking up his post and as incoming Foreign Secretary I confirmed him in that post. However, with a different Administration and a lapse of three years, it is open to the Foreign Secretary to take a different view of the nature of the task. On that basis he came to me with the proposition. Although the appointment is the Foreign Secretary's, I do not wish to shug off responsibility at all. I am sure that I could have said “No” , but on the basis of the argument that the Foreign Secretary put to me I said “Yes” .
Mr. Bidwell
Will my right hon. Friend accept that many of us recognise the considerable abilities of the new Ambassador to Washington, but if he runs across the Home Secretary will he consult him to see whether this appointment falls within the purview of a marriage of convenience?
The Prime Minister
I am happy to say on these domestic affairs that my daughter has been happily married for 16 years and has produced three grandchildren for me. Somehow, I do not think that when Mr. Jay proposed to her he had in mind the possibility either that I would become Prime Minister or that he might be appointed Ambassador to the United States.
[column 1546]LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (SPEECH)
20. Mr. Wyn Roberts
asked the Prime Minister if the speech of the Lord President of the Council at Kirkby on constitutional reform on 25th April represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
21. Mr. Ridley
asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Lord President of the Council at Kirkby-in-Ashfield on 25th April 1977 on constitutional reform represents the Government's policy.
28. Mr. Eidon Griffiths
asked the Prime Minister if the Lord President of the Council's statement that the result of the Ashfield by-election will help Great Britain on the way to a Socialist republic represents the policy of the Government.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Member to the replies given by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council to the hon. Members for Wirral (Mr. Hunt) and Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) on 28th April.
Mr. Roberts
Is the Prime Minister aware that in the course of that reply the Lord President did not deny the remarks about progressing towards a Socialist republic? Since I cannot believe that the Prime Minister is heading in the same direction, will he take this opportunity to say so unequivocally? Then, perhaps, the rest of the Government, including the Lord President, will fall in line and the principle of collective responsibility, on which the Prime Minister is so keen when it applies to the Opposition, can be reasserted.
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend has made it clear that his remarks were wrenched from their context—[Hon. Members: “Oh.” ] I am sure that is true. As for my own position and that of the Government, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the speech I made on 3rd May, when I moved the motion that a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty. He will find epitomised in that speech my sentiments on the Throne, the constitution and the Crown.
[column 1547]Mr. Ridley
Is the Prime Minister saying that the quoted report in the Nottingham Evening Post is wrong? If not, will he say why he has told my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition that she must be responsible for everything said by Conservative candidates, whereas he is not prepared to repudiate anything said by his Cabinet colleagues?
The Prime Minister
So far as I know, what was said by the Conservative candidate who is now the Member was not wrenched out of context. It was a printed document——
Mr. Ridley
I have it here.
The Prime Minister
—whereas I understand that the other matter was a spontaneous reply to a good deal of heckling at the end of a by-election meeting. That was on an entirely different basis. I ask Conservative Members to search their minds and say whether, following heckling at a meeting, they have not thrown back a remark addressed to them. I am sure that each one of them has done so on some occasions.
Mr. Griffiths
Does the Prime Minister recognise that we can all make a mistake in what we say, but will he answer this simple question: did the Lord President use the term “a Socialist republic” or did he not? Did he mean it? If he did, will the Prime Minister repudiate him?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman himself has just used the term “Socialist republic” . I do not have to repudiate it. It depends on the context in which such a phrase is used and the person to whom it is addressed. There is no written text, and we have to rely on my right hon. Friend's memory. [Hon. Members: “Oh.” ] Opposition Members cannot rely on anything else, because I understand that this piece was written up by a reporter who was 200 miles away at the time it was said. I do not mind the Opposition having a bit of fun about this, but I do not think anybody takes it very seriously.
Mr. Kinnock
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in his views on a Socialist republic the Lord President is advocating views on a change in the constitution which are much more commendable than certain other changes in the constitution recently offered by the Government? In [column 1548]the deliberations about the constitution which are being undertaken by the Government, will the Prime Minister give consideration to constitutional changes that would enable the House to examine the holders of particularly important and sensitive appointments before they take up those appointments, as is done in other parliamentary systems, so that we may avoid the enormous and stupendous political insensitivity in the appointment of a person who, whatever his individual talents, is inappropriate for the job?
The Prime Minister
There has always been a streak of republicanism in this country, and if my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) wishes to say that he is a republican he is entitled to do so. But that is not the attitude of Her Majesty's Government, and my hon. Friend is not yet a member of that Government. [Interruption.] One does not have to belong to Moscow to be a republican. Republicanism has always been a theme which, frankly, I know the overwhelming majority of the country feels is not appropriate to our constitutional arrangements. That is a matter for my hon. Friend to work out.
As for the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I have nothing to add to what I have said.
Mrs. Thatcher
As the James CallaghanPrime Minister has made some inquiries into this matter, and for the sake of greater accuracy, will he tell the House the context in which the Michael FootLord President used the phrase?
The Prime Minister
I cannot pretend that my researches into this matter have been as detailed as they are into some possible questions. [Hon. Members: “Why not?” ] Because the matter is not serious enough; that is why. I did, how, ever, see the Daily Express, of which I always take great note, and the Daily Mail. From then on I drew my own conclusions and had a word with my right hon. Friend.
Mrs. Thatcher
What was reported in the Daily Mail was serious and purported to be verbatim. If that is an accurate report of the context, there is only one reply that the Prime Minister can give—namely, that what the Lord President is reported to have said in no way represents Government policy.
[column 1549]The Prime Minister
Obviously I have not pursued my research far enough, because my right hon. Friend tells me that the Daily Mail reporter who wrote the story was not present. I hope that the right hon. Lady is not relying on that evidence. I think that our attitude is pretty clear on this matter, and I do not think I have anything to add.
Mr. Ridley
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to ask leave to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.
Mr. English
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Since the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) accused——
Mr. Speaker
May we take points of order after Questions?
Later——
Mr. English
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On Question No. 21 to the Prime Minister, the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) referred to my local newspaper, the Nottingham Evening Post. Is the Prime Minister aware that it is the only newspaper——
Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is very experienced in the ways of the House. He knows whether he has a point of order to put to me or whether he is trying to score points. Has he a point of order?
Mr. English
I hope that I have, Mr. Speaker. It is the generally accepted custom of the House that if matters concerning an hon. Member's constituency are referred to, that hon. Member is given the opportunity to comment on them—[Interruption.] In one sentence, Mr. Speaker, may I put, through you, to the Prime Minister——
Mr. Speaker
Order. In one word, “No” .
Mr. English
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Nottingham Evening Post is, if not the only newspaper, certainly the first in this century that has ever caused a strike of every union of its employees because it sacked over 100 of all their members.
Mr. Speaker
Order. Everyone is proud of his own local paper.
[column 1550]NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES
24. Mr. Mike Thomas
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the nationalised industry chairmen.
22. Mr. Corbett
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the nationalised industry heads.
23. Mr. Ward
asked the Prime Minister how often he meets the chairmen of the nationalised industries.
The Prime Minister
I refer my hon. Friends to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council gave on my behalf to the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson) on 10th March.
Mr. Thomas
When my right hon. Friend next meets the Chairman of the Central Electricity Generating Board, will he discuss with him the fact that both he and the Secretary of State for Energy have now clearly decided what “good girls” they are and in the matter of Drax B have agreed on the price? In those circumstances, will he assure the House that the order for Drax B, on which thousands of jobs in my constituency and in Scotland depend, will be brought forward with the minimum of delay?
The Prime Minister
I can give my hon. Friend an assurance that the order for the Drax B power station will be made with the minimum of delay. I do not wish to quantify that, but discussions are proceeding urgently—indeed, at almost daily intervals. We are well aware of the circumstances and my hon. Friend has represented his case fully. We shall have to see how we can bring this to a conclusion. There are certain conclusions that the Government would like to achieve that would improve the health of the industry, but, whatever the result of those conclusions, Drax B will have to be ordered.