Employment (Scotland)
Q1. Mr. Rifkind
asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the co-ordination between the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Secretary of State for Employment with regard to the level of unemployment in Scotland.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
Yes.
[column 695]Mr. Rifkind
Is the Prime Minister aware that the appalling lack of co-ordination in employment matters led to a heavy Government defeat this morning in the Scottish Grand Committee? Is he not also aware that it was due to the unpaired absence of 13 Labour Members? Does he not feel that the trend he began 10 days ago of allowing the Government to be defeated because of his own unpaired absence is being followed a little too closely by many of his hon. Friends and could lead to the unemployment of the Labour Government?
The Prime Minister
I am glad to say that the co-ordination between the various Departments—and the Question relates to co-ordination—has resulted in assistance being given in a number of important respects. For example, it has led to Section 7 loans and grants totalling £41 million and to some 35,000 jobs—[Hon. Members: “Answer the question.” ]—anticipating a total expenditure of £383 million. I thought that the hon. Gentleman was getting to his feet to congratulate the Government on their part in establishing the Cummins Engine Company diesel works near Glasgow, in which the Scottish Development Corporation has set aside a considerable sum of money for the provision of labour. That project is going through because of the good quality of Scottish labour. All that seems to me to be much more important than making the kind of point the hon. Gentleman sought to make in his supplementary question.
Mr. David Steel
Will the Prime Minister say when the two Secretaries of State will be announcing new measures to give employment incentives to Scottish development areas, as foreshadowed in statements he is always making about sudden withdrawals of regional employment premium?
The Prime Minister
Yes, discussions are taking place on that subject and I promise that action will follow as quickly as possible. A number of projects are now under consideration. The accelerated projects scheme has been replaced by the new selective scheme which involves a total of £100 million.
Mr. William Ross
Will my right hon. Friend not worry too much about the farce that we experienced this morning in [column 696]the Scottish Grand Committee? We welcome the fact that 10 English Members showed a belated interest in Scottish education and voted on something that did not matter at all. Will he take seriously the subject of co-ordination and widen it to include the Department of Industry and the Treasury? Furthermore, will he invite them to make an assessment and report to him on the consequences of the withdrawal of REP, and will he prepare a further programme of action?
The Prime Minister
Yes, I shall consider that suggestion. We have made a number of inquiries about REP, on which my right hon. Friend and others have made representations. However, it appears that business men much prefer the other incentives that are taking its place. Such research as we have done confirms that, but I shall continue to examine these matters and to obtain the best co-ordination possible.
Mr. Donald Stewart
As Scottish unemployment is at a level that is unprecedented since before the war and in view of what was said by the former Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), that a Secretary of State who sees unemployment rising to 100,000 should resign, will the Prime Minister undertake to inform the present holder of that office that if he gets unemployment down to 100,000 he may remain in office?
The Prime Minister
Scottish unemployment is a factor in United Kingdom unemployment as a whole and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will tell his constituents that the economy of Scotland cannot be separated from that of England and Wales. The same factors affect both countries, including the increased prices of commodities and imported materials that have sent up costs so much. The unemployment situation in Scotland must be improved, and the Government's policy for industrial strategy is the best way of achieving that, coupled with overcoming inflation.
Miss Harvie Anderson
Since the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) objects to English Members voting in a Scottish Committee, can the Prime Minister say whether the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock will abstain from the [column 697]English education vote tonight or, indeed, from the United Kingdom vote?
The Prime Minister
I should not dream of answering on behalf of my right hon. Friend. Having heard him bite off one Tory after another during his years in the House, I can tell the right hon. Lady that he is more than a match for any 10 of her colleagues.
HOUSING (EX-SERVICE MEN)
Q2. Mr. Ian Lloyd
asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the co-ordination between the Ministry of Defence and the Department of the Environment on the arrangements being made for rehousing Service men on their retirement or discharge from the Services.
The Prime Minister
Yes.
Mr. Lloyd
Since the House may safely assume that the Prime Minister is familiar with the heavy concentration of Service families in Hampshire, may I ask whether he is also aware that in one local authority area alone there are 78 Service families in irregular occupation of military accommodation? If the problem is to be handled on a more realistic basis, does it not require a more realistic approach to the rate support grant for the county?
The Prime Minister
I am aware of this question, particularly in places such as Gosport, Portsmouth and Rushmoor, Aldershot. I am told that there was a meeting a short while ago between the Department of the Environment and the Ministry of Defence on the one hand and the local authorities on the other to deal with the problem. The situation is not satisfactory, although Circular 54/75 was intended to deal with it. I hope that local authorities everywhere will do what they can, within their overall responsibilities, to assist the resettlement of ex-Service men when they have finished their term in the forces.
Mr. Newens
Does not the Prime Minister regard it as an appalling insult to a Service man who has satisfactorily completed his term of service that he should be taken out of a Defence Department-owned house by a bailiff acting on a court order? Does the Prime Minister realise that this is exactly what is due to happen to one of my constituents, Mr. Wood of North Weald, next Monday morning because the local Epping Forest Council is [column 698]unable to offer anything better for his family than bed-and-breakfast accommodation? Is it not time to stop this state of affairs, not only for my constituent but for all such people?
The Prime Minister
Now that my hon. Friend has brought the matter into the daylight, I am sure that it will be looked into, if that has not been done before. I shall not undertake any action myself but I shall draw the matter to the attention of the Secretary of State for Defence.
Mr. Churchill
Does the Prime Minister realise that only this week the Secretary of State for Defence admitted in a Written Answer that more than 125,000 jobs have been deliberately destroyed in the Services and defence industries as a result of the Socialist defence cuts? Does the Prime Minister realise that there will be further cuts involving another 218,000 jobs by 1979? Is not this the biggest job destruction programme ever undertaken by any Government, and how does the Prime Minister excuse his callous complacency?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Member should not confuse whirling words with cogent argument. The Question is related to the rehousing of ex-Service men. I have dealt with that Question, I have been into it thoroughly and I shall continue to investigate it.
Mr. Pavitt
As one of the most imaginative schemes of the Government has been the promotion of co-operative housing in the ordinary sector, though it is having to be held back a bit because of public expenditure cuts, would my right hon. Friend consider as a possible solution to the housing problems of ex-Service men that the Ministry of Defence and the Department of the Environment might pursue the formation of housing co-operatives?
The Prime Minister
I shall draw my hon. Friend's suggestion to the attention of the Department of the Environment and the Secretary of State for Defence.
Mr. Nelson
Does the Prime Minister know about the serious housing difficulties that are faced by widows of Service men who have been killed, by invalided Service men and by Service men who face risks in settling in Northern Ireland but who have family connections there? Although local authorities do not have any priorities forced upon them, will the [column 699]Prime Minister give priority to these special groups to whom we all owe a particular responsibility?
The Prime Minister
I should not want to see a widow turned out of a Service house if that could be avoided. I speak from personal experience of this matter. When my father died, we were living in a Coastguard cottage and we had to leave. That was many years ago and I hope that we have moved beyond that situation now, but that is why I am taking a personal interest in the matter and I shall try to do everything that I can to overcome it.
Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles
Does the Prime Minister remember from his days as a divisional officer the haunting problem that housing posed for his sailors? Does he realise that with the turbulence that there now is in Service life, many ex-Service people have either no home towns to which they can return or insufficient residence qualifications in dockyard and garrison towns? The present Department of the Environment circular is not proving very effective. Therefore, can the Prime Minister help and have a personal word with the Secretary of State for the Environment to see whether something more effective can be persuaded upon local authorities all over the country?
The Prime Minister
Much information and advice is given to Service men at all stages in their careers. Not all of them take advantage of it, but many do. The Secretary of State for the Environment is prepared to consider an application from any local authority that can make a case for allowing priorities for areas of housing stress or pockets of housing stress. That is the best way to proceed. I am, however, willing to look at any other matter and to ask the Secretary of State to investigate it.
TUC
Q3. Mr Forman
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the TUC.
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Corbett) on 3rd February.
Mr. Forman
When the Prime Minister last met the TUC, did he make clear [column 700]that he is now prepared to shelve the damaging and controversial proposals in the Bullock majority recommendation for putting trade unionists on the board? Is not one of the reasons why the prospects for further pay restraint beyond the end of July are now so dim—and perhaps fatally damaging that the Government's policies on direct taxation have put a crushing burden on ordinary working people?
The Prime Minister
I have nothing to add to what I have previously said in the House about the Bullock Report. We are entering a period of intense negotiation in order to try, if possible, to see how we can secure a lasting settlement, but that will take a great deal of negotiation to achieve. I do not know whether we can achieve it, but it is worth trying because there is no doubt that the idea of industrial democracy and participation has come to stay. Therefore, we ought to try to find a solution and introduce legislation to achieve it.
As to direct taxation, everybody is suffering from that, always has done and always will, but no doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have more to say about that when he introduces his Budget.
Mr. John Mendelson
Has the Prime Minister seen that, in the statement which arose from the meeting of the economic committee of the General Council of the TUC, great stress was laid on the measures that Government should take to reduce unemployment? Is he aware that the President of the United States is implementing the programme of the American trade union movement with whose support he was elected and is spending $25,000 million to create 1,100,000 new jobs? In his forthcoming discussions with the President, will my right hon. Friend agree that Great Britain should have a similar policy and should abandon the policy of not spending more public money to save jobs but rather of allowing unemployment to remain at its present high level?
The Prime Minister
Such a policy will be appropriate when the Government secure, as they intend, a level of inflation and a balance of payments surplus that are comparable to those of the United States. Even apart from that, [column 701]the two cases are not equal and the same remedies are not applicable.
Mrs. Thatcher
Can James Callaghanthe right hon. Gentleman tell the House why it is, in his view, that when we had the pay dispute with the seamen their claim was able to be resolved generously and satisfactorily within the pay policy but that the Government seem totally unable to respond in the same way to the police claim? Is he aware that this is giving rise to very considerable concern and that we all hope that the Government will be able to respond and solve the dispute generously within the pay policy?
The Prime Minister
If it is possible to settle the policemen's pay claim within the pay policy, the right hon. Lady need have no doubt that it will be done. The Home Secretary is the responsible Minister, but I try to keep myself apprised of such matters in case I get asked the sort of question that the right hon. Lady asked. From my cursory examination, it appears that the cases of the policemen and the seamen are not on all fours and are not altogether comparable. The Home Secretary is doing what he can to get a settlement. I have always taken the view that the police service should get the best possible conditions, but we cannot break a Pay Code which has been generally accepted, even for the most deserving cases. If we can find something within the limits of the Pay Code, I agree that we should do so.
Mrs. Thatcher
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no one in my party has ever sought a breach of the Government's Pay Code and that I said this when we had the National Union of Seamen's dispute? As the right hon. Gentleman does not hesitate to take over responsibilities from other Departments, will he intervene personally in this case? After all, he has a special knowledge of the police claim and it is one that is very important indeed for the future safety of the citizens of this country.
The Prime Minister
I have listened to the right hon. Lady's proposals, but she knows that I have not taken over responsibilities from other Ministers—though she insists on continuing to say that I have. It would not be right for me to do so in this case, but, of course, these matters will receive overall Government consideration.
[column 702]Mr. Speaker
Business Question, Mrs. Thatcher.
Mr. Alexander W. Lyon
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was about to address you on the question of a Standing Order No. 9 application in relation to the Agee and Hosenball case. I recognise that you have said that this should be done at the end of business questions, but I rise to warn my hon. Friends that they had better come back from the Tea Room at the appropriate time.
Mr. Speaker
That was more a matter of strategy than a point of order.