CROYDON
Q2. Mr. Aitken
asked the Prime Minister if he will make an official visit to Croydon.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. Aitken
Will the Prime Minister make a special visit to the headquarters of the Home Office Immigration Department at Croydon in order to resolve the growing uncertainty and confusion about dependants? In particular, does he realise that, as long as the Government remain unable clearly to define and give an accurate estimate of the number of Commonswealth dependants who are entitled to come here, their immigration policy will remain a chaotic and contentious shambles?
The Prime Minister
No, I do not accept that. It is necessary that there should be a clear understanding of the principles and conditions under which immigrants may come to this country. The rules are pretty clear, although they are somewhat complicated in certain circumstances. I have always taken the view, and I continue to take it, as do the Government as a whole, that the numbers entering are an important element of racial harmony. As for the possible creation of a dependants' register, as the hon. Member will know Lord Franks is looking into the feasibility of the idea as a means of estimating the numbers who have still to come here. I suggest that the hon. Member waits for the result of that report.
Mr. Bidwell
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the pressures that are currently emanating from Tory backwoodsmen like the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken)? They should not be allowed to lead to needless harassment at our ports of coloured people who are seeking to come here quite legitimately, either under the 1971 immigration rules as passed by the Conservatives or for genuine visits on the occasion of family bereavements, weddings and so on.
The Prime Minister
Having read some of the hon. Member's previous contributions on this matter, I have the [column 1428]feeling that he was more concerned this afternoon to make a party point than to harass immigrants. The consequences of making this party point, however, may be to raise tension, and the hon. Gentleman should keep that in mind. This is especially so because it is clear that there is a great deal of uncertainty among people who do not know their way around about the rules which are administered at Croydon. It is the job of the House to explain the rules to those who wish to come here and to tell them whether they satisfy the conditions. As regards those already here, having seen the way in which some immigrants apply themselves—especially the Asian business people—I wish that some of our native-born people would do the same.
Mr. John Moore
Is the Prime Minister aware how distressed I am that he is not able to visit my constituency? If he is able to visit Croydon in future, will he assure the Conservative councillors who run the town's finances so responsibly and who have reduced their budgets in accordance with the Government's request, that they will not be made to suffer because of spendthrift Socialist councils like Camden?
The Prime Minister
That is rather a switch in topic—the same geographical location, but a different subject. As regards the financial aspects of local authorities, I do not think that it is possible to divide them as the hon. Gentleman has done. The Government do not have control over local government current expenditure and it would not be right, certainly during this year, to discriminate between those who have tried to keep within the agreed limits and those who have not.
Mr. Cyril Smith
If the Prime Minister visits Croydon, will he inform the Home Office staff there of the view of some hon. Members on this side of the House that a man whose skin is black is as entitled to spend his life with his family as is a man whose skin is white?
The Prime Minister
I have found from my experience of Home Office officials before they went to Croydon—and I am sure this is still true—that they acknowledge that principle. It is a principle that I should like to see acknowledged by all Opposition Members.
[column 1429]Mrs. Thatcher
May I ask James Callaghanthe Prime Minister to reconsider some of his totally unjustified remarks to my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken)? Does he not recollect that my hon. Friend initiated in a very constructive way a debate on immigration in Private Members' time? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in raising this question my hon. Friend raised the very real worry which most people feel because they are perturbed about the numbers who may be entitled to come here? Does not the Prime Minister recognise that until this is resolved their worries will continue?
The Prime Minister
I have no need to reconsider what I said. If anything, I thought I was letting off the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) rather lightly. I assumed that his principal object was to attack the Government and not immigrants. I read at lunchtime today the speech made by the hon. Member in the debate to which the right hon. Lady refers. That was why I made the comments I did. His speech was in marked contrast in moderation and nature to the supplementary question that he put today. That is why I am trying to be fair to him.
It is important for us all that there should be well-understood conditions of entry and that the numbers who enter should be limited to those who meet those conditions. [Hon. Members: “How many?” ] When they have properly entered, the people concerned should be entitled to live here in the same way as the rest of the community.
Mrs. Thatcher
What is party political about asking the Government to give the facts on the number of dependants entitled to come here?
The Prime Minister
There is nothing party political about that. I am sure that the hon. Member for Thanet, East is well able to look after himself, but no doubt he will be happy to have the maternal protection of the Leader of the Opposition. There is nothing objectionable about answering a question on numbers. [Interruption.] I wish that the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop would be quiet for a moment. We are not on points of order now. The House knows that the question of a dependants' register is being properly examined by Lord Franks, and I suggest [column 1430]that we should wait for the results of that examination.
Mr. Aitken
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
Prime Minister
Engagements
Q3. Mr. Peter Morrison
asked the Prime Minister what are his official engagements for 3rd August.
The Prime Minister
I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet this morning and will be holding other meetings throughout the day.
Mr. Morrison
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, whatever his official engagements today, I wish him a very pleasant holiday free of such official engagements? For those of us taking our holidays at the end of September, can he give an assurance that he will not be calling an early General Election and wrecking our plans?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful for the hon. Member's good wishes, which I reciprocate. As for his comments about the end of September, I suggest that he should cultivate his constituency a little carefully.
Mr. Raphael Tuck
Will my right hon. Friend make it a resolution for today to inform the country that, as the CBI treacherously stabbed him in the back after he extended the hand of friendship it is more important than ever vigorously to pursue industrial investment through organisations like the NEB?
The Prime Minister
From my discussions with Lord Watkinson, it is clear that on the second occasion when I saw him he was accurately reflecting the views of CBI members who were deeply upset by the imposition of increased national insurance contributions. However, it is also clear that Lord Watkinson is anxious that relations between the Government and the CBI should not be exacerbated.
I was very glad to see today that the CBI's forecast of investment intentions shows that they are still improving. Figures due to be published today—I am [column 1431]sure that the Opposition will be pleased to hear this—indicate an increase in the volume of investment to be undertaken by British industries of between 10 and 15 per cent. in the 12 months to September 1977, compared with the previous 12 months.
Mr. Lawson
In the context of investment intentions, will the right hon. Gentleman give a straight answer to a straight question and say whether the Government are committed to the introduction of a wealth tax in the next Session of Parliament?
The Prime Minister
I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should await the Queen's Speech.
Mr. Ron Thomas
Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to spare a few moments in his very busy day to look at the up-to-date figures of increasing penetration of finished and semi-finished manufactured goods, the outflow from our capital account and the increased cost of our military expenditure overseas, with a view to providing alternative policies?
The Prime Minister
All these matters are of considerable importance. During recent years there has been a growing import penetration by overseas goods, especially from Germany, which does not reflect well on the capacity of our own industries to sustain competition. Our overseas military expenditure has grown substantially because of the relative decline in the offset arrangements with Germany which occurred between 1970 and 1974. We shall have to take up this matter in due course in order to get a better acknowledgement of the mutual advantage received by both NATO and the United Kingdom from the present arrangement.
Mr. Montgomery
Does not the Prime Minister feel that perhaps today he could spare some time for the Parliamentary Labour Party, to teach some of its Members the facts of life, particularly as regards who was to blame for bringing sick Members to vote in the House last week? In view of the charges made against my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, will the right hon. Gentleman tell his Friends that the Liberal Party offered to pair with very [column 1432]sick Members and that the hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Sir A. Broughton) wishes to resign but that the Labour Party will not let him? Will the right hon. Gentleman also put the blame where it firmly belongs, with his right hon. Friend the Government Chief Whip?
The Prime Minister
I am not sure how much of that question is worth a reply. I have yet to learn that any hon. Member is unable to apply for the Chiltern Hundreds as a result of the activities of either Chief Whip, if he wishes to do so. I am not sure how relevant that matter is.
As for arrangements for sick Members, I went to the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting last Thursday and listened to a very interesting discussion—I am sure that the Opposition will be interested to hear this—about the arrangements that should be made in order to avoid bringing sick Members to the House. I hope that at an appropriate opportunity there will be the prospect of discussions between the two sides of the House in order to avoid these problems.
Mr. Swain
Will my right hon. Friend consider rearranging his programme for this Saturday? In my village we are holding a village gala, at which one of the highlights is the burning of an effigy of the Iron Maiden.