ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
(PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECH)
Q1. Mr. Lawson
asked the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech on economic policy to the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers at Blackpool on 25th April.
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I did so on 26th April.
Mr. Lawson
In that speech the Prime Minister said that most people would be better off with the Chancellor's pay proposals than they would with free collective bargaining. Does he intend that free collective bargaining should ever be restored, and, if so, when?
the Prime Minister
I learned a long time ago from Mr. Henry Hopkinson never to use the word “never” , and I shall not do it now.
Mr. Arthur Latham
Does the Prime Minister agree that there was nothing in that speech that could be regarded as offering any firm assurances to representatives of the TUC about rents, fares, food subsidies, or prices generally, or about overall public expenditure in terms of the social wage? If he were the General Secretary of the TUC and Mr. Len Murray were Prime Minister, would he feel that this was a good bargain, in the absence of any undertakings of that kind?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has no doubt studied the speech that I made to delegates of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers Conference, but he did not have the advantage of hearing it. The delegates were generous enough to give me a standing ovation as I left the hall—which may have been because they were grateful that I had finished or because they approved of my argument, and approved of the way in which the case had been put—a case that is supported by the overwhelming majority of people in this country
[column 224]Mrs. Thatcher
Does James Callaghanthe Prime Minister recollect that towards the end of his speech he spoke not of controlling inflation but of creating other values which are generally appealing? Does he accept that as the recent local elections show, Many council tenants wish to own the homes they live in? Will he give the House an assurance that his Government will do nothing to prevent the sale of council houses to council tenants?
The Prime Minister
I am not surprised at the right hon. Lady's ingenuity in bringing the local elections into a Question about a speech that I made at Blackpool two weeks beforehand. I have listened to what has been said about the subject of my speech recommending the acceptance of a bargain along the lines proposed by the Chancellor. I am still waiting to hear from the right hon. Lady whether she recommends it.
Hon. Members
Answer the Question.
The Prime Minister
I am answering a Question related to my speech at Blackpool. It is the right hon. Lady who is wriggling, and trying to avoid the Question, and dragging in red herrings. As for council houses, if a Question is tabled on that matter it will be answered.
What I want to know from the right hon. Lady, and what the country as a whole wants to know is—even though her Back Benchers are trying to prevent me from getting the Question across—does she recommend this settlement made by the TUC to its members, or does she not?
Mrs. Thatcher
The Prime Minister is paid to answer questions and we are paid to ask them. Why is he so afraid to answer my questions, especially since we took his home city?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Lady is also paid, but not as much as I am, and she is paid to ask relevant questions. I note that once again she evades the question whether the Conservative Party supports the view of the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) who is against this settlement, or the view of the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) who is grudgingly infavour of it. Where does the right hon. Lady perch on the twig between the two of them?
[column 225]MERSEYSIDE
Q2. Mr. Loyden
asked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Merseyside.
The Prime Minister
I have at present no plans to do so.
Mr. Loyden
Is my right hon. Friend aware that an official visit by him to Merseyside at this stage would be most welcome if only for the fact that it would provide the opportunity for him to answer the questions raised by 80,000-plus unemployed in Liverpool relating to how soon the Government's policies will be directed towards a reduction in that number? Is my right hon. Friend aware that instead of a rosy future for Merseyside there are predictions of yet further job losses, and that that is something to which the Government should pay attention.
The Prime Minister
I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his Question, because unemployment should be of deep concern to us all. For Merseyside, there is every reason for concern about the future situation as well as the present. I understand that discussion is going on between hon. Members and Ministers about some of the industries there, and I hope that this will continue. Basically, however, an improvement in Merseyside will come, I hope, with the upturn in the economy, which has already begun. It would be wrong to hold out false hopes of an early improvement in the unemployment situation, but if we overcome inflation through an acceptance of the TUC wage deal, and if we take other measures, I believe that Merseyside's unemployment will begin to fall.
Mr. Peter Bottomley
Will the Prime Minister say, on a visit to Merseyside or elsewhere, whether the pay policy that gives 4½–5 per cent. to people at work will represent a transfer of resources to or away from families with children?
The Prime Minister
All of the proposals lower the standard of life of the British people over the next 12 months. I hope that that factor will not be avoided by anybody, and I hope that in its approach to the situation the Conservative Party will explain what it would do as an alternative.
[column 226]Mr. Heffer
In considering the problems of Merseyside, will my right hon. Friend consider especially the problems in the construction industry there, for which the levels of unemployment are the highest in the country? Is he aware that in the past the city council has reduced the level of house building? Will he therefore ask Ministers in the appropriate Department to impose the maximum pressure to get house building moving rapidly again on Merseyside?
The Prime Minister
I am aware of the serious position in the construction industry. Special steps have been taken. Council house building has been increased, although to the best of my recollection private house building has been fairly stagnant. I shall look into this problem and ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment to discuss the matter with me. Generally, however, an improvement in the construction industry is again likely to take place in parallel with the upturn in the economy.
Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles
Will the right hon. Gentleman accept my congratulations on being the first Prime Minister with the inestimable advantage of a naval training? As for the problems on Merseyside, will he look very broadly at the difficulties of the British merchant shipping industry, which frequently works from Merseyside, taking particular account of the extent to which it is being undercut by unfair competition from Soviet bloc shipping?
The Prime Minister
Shipping is extremely important to Merseyside. I shall look into this matter, as the hon. and gallant Member invites me to do. I thank him for his congratulations. I am glad to see that he has recovered and is in good voice.
Mr. Kilroy-Silk
Apart from the 80,000 unemployed adults, who include the 14,000 unemployed construction workers, there are 3,000 unemployed school leavers on Merseyside. My right hon. Friend recently emphasised the importance of profits in solving our problems. Is he aware that when profits were high unemployment on Merseyside was high? Does he agree that we need greater public control and direction of [column 227]industry? What do the Government intend to do to ensure that this summer Merseyside school leavers will find jobs?
The Prime Minister
A number of steps have been taken through the job creation programme, the recruitment subsidy for school leavers, and the doubling of the temporary employment subsidy, all of which have helped to alleviate unemployment. I agree about the plight of the young people. The Government must pay special attention to that, so that when young people leave school they have the prospect of a job. But let us not hold out false hopes. The best return to prosperity for this country lies in an export-led upturn in production. If we can get that—and it is already beginning now, although I do not want to give the figures—[Hon. Members: “Why not?” ]—because I want to be accurate—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) will find, when one day he stands at this Box as Prime Minister, that it is better to be accurate than to give figures that are not right and be challenged afterwards. There is now an increase in exports, which will continue. I would prefer the Government to do it this way than to embark upon domestic-led reflation, which would very shortly burst and ensure a return to an inflationary period, with more unemployment.
COMMONWEALTH SECRETARIAT
(SECRETARY GENERAL)
Q3. Mr. Townsend
asked the Prime Minister if he has recently met the Commonwealth Secretary General.
The Prime Minister
Yes. I had a meeting with Mr. Ramphal last Thursday 6th May.
Mr. Townsend
Did the Prime Minister ask the Secretary-General what action the Commonwealth Committee on Cyprus plans to take to protect that tragically divided island when the Turkish military authorities are introducing more Turks from the mainland into Cyprus and the number of Greek Cypriots in the north continues to diminish?
The Prime Minister
No, I did not discuss that point with the Secretary General, but perhaps the hon. Member [column 228]will table a Question to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, who is, I know, concerned about it.
Mr. Hooley
Will my right hon. Friend explain to the Secretary General what has happened to the Government's excellent initiative on commodities, taken at Kingston last year, which, judging by the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade at UNCTAD the other day, appears to have disappeared into a totally negative and unhelpful approach?
The Prime Minister
We discussed that matter, which has been discussed a number of times. The Government are most anxious to enter into a series of commodity—by—commodity arrangements, which would help the developing countries. However, when we are asking our own people to accept a voluntary reduction in their standard of life there are limits to what we can do in other directions.
Sir David Renton
In view of the unemployment levels, the shortage of housing and school places, and other factors in this country, will the Prime Minister ask the Commonwealth Secretariat for help on the difficult problem of British passport holders in East and Central Africa, perhaps to use its good offices with the Indian Government, bearing in mind that so many of these people originated from India.
The Prime Minister
No, I think that is a matter for us and not for the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth Secretariat.
Mr. Spearing
When my right hon. Friend met the Secretary-General did he refer to any initiative he might take for getting Commonwealth representatives to meet before UNCTAD, and was that possible? Does my right hon. Friend not realise that the speech by the Secretary of State for Trade was not a happy one for the Government, because it did not contain many positive proposals of which the Commonwealth Secretariat would have approved wholeheartedly?
The Prime Minister
The Government's policy is based to a considerable extent upon the report of the experts of the Commonwealth who met before the UNCTAD meeting and have been meeting regularly for the past 12 months. We [column 229]have discussed these matters on a number of occasions. We wish and are ready to put in a great deal in order to ensure the success of these commodity agreements, but there are limits to what this country can do in present circumstances.
Mr. Tapsell
Remembering the important speech on commodities of the last Prime Minister, in Kingston, does not Dr. Kissinger 's recent speech developing that theme produce a timely situation for a Commonwealth initiative, especially as many of the problems in these and other countries in the international monetary field have been caused by violent fluctuations in commodity prices?
The Prime Minister
That was the origin of my right hon. Friend's speech last year, in which I played some part. It is in order to achieve that end that we would like to see commodity arrangements entered into, commodity by commodity. That would be far better than the bottom-less purse that would be needed if we had a general fund for this purpose. We are certain that this would improve the position of developing countries. There is a widespread concern—which I share—about the indebtedness of developing countries, which is rapidly increasing. We have an obligation to do what we can, but here are limits beyond which we cannot go in present circumstances.