16. Mr. Selwyn Gummer
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will issue advice to local authorities faced with parents who refuse to sign grant forms for children wishing to go to university.
Mr. St. John-Stevas
No specific advice has been given with regard to signing forms. My Department wrote to all local education authorities on 27th September 1968 asking them to ensure that parents who were required to make a contribution to their student son or daughter were reminded of their responsibility for making up the grant to the full amount of the total maintenance figure.
Mr. Gummer
Is my hon. Friend aware that some students find that their parents will not sign the grant form and are unable to receive the grant? Will my hon. Friend and his right hon. Friend ensure that local authorities are as helpful as possible in such cases so that students are not excluded from university by parents who do not wish them to go?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
Yes. I have considerable sympathy with students whose parents refuse to make a declaration of their income. I undertake to do what I can to help to achieve equity in these rare but difficult cases.
Mr. R. C. Mitchell
The Minister said that he would undertake to do what he can. What can he do?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
I think that local education authorities, when they meet cases which are strictly within the rules, try to be as helpful as possible in finding a way to meet the need. In that respect, I think that the advice of the [column 1222]Department and the attitude of Ministers can be of help.
Nursery Education
7. Mr. R. C. Mitchell
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will ensure that those local education authorities, already having a high proportion of rising fives in full-time education, will not be penalised when allocating resources for nursery school provision under her Department's circular 2/73.
Mrs. Thatcher
Yes, Sir.
Mr. Mitchell
Is the Secretary of State aware that some local authorities, such as Southampton, which has a very good record for having rising fives in full-time education, are worried that the formula outlined in circular 2/73 will mean that they will be penalised when it comes to the allocation of funds for nursery school education because some of those rising fives will be taken into consideration in the calculation?
Mrs. Thatcher
The rising fives are those who go to school in the term in which they become five. The decisive factor for the nursery school programme is not the number in school but the number out of school whose need is still for nursery places. Otherwise, we should be in great difficulty with the urban programme if we had more in schools than elsewhere. Therefore, the determining factor is the numbers out of school who need nursery education.
8. Miss Lestor
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement on the provision of staff and equipment for four-year-olds and rising fives in nursery schools.
[column 1223]Mrs. Thatcher
I have asked local education authorities to ensure that the hours of attendance, staffing, programmes, accommodation and equipment available to pupils under five are equivalent to those appropriate to nursery classes.
Miss Lestor
Is not the right hon. Lady aware that with the policy of taking rising fives and four-year-olds into primary schools there is growing evidence of concern in the teaching profession that large numbers of these children are taken into classes of 30, that there is no extra help, and that in a primary school it is ridiculous to try to imagine that rising fives and four-year-olds will obtain nursery education unless exactly the same conditions apply to the primary school as apply to those of the same age in nursery schools?
Mrs. Thatcher
When I announced the nursery programme, which the hon. Lady was not able to do, it was a great advance to have rising fives and some under-fives in school because it was a great help to them. Now we have a nursery programme, which the hon. Lady was never able to announce, and we have asked for the full staffing standards for nursery classes for the under-fives.
Mr. Fell
Does not my right hon. Friend consider that children of this tender age are far better off in the hands of their mothers than in these play schools and so on?
Mrs. Thatcher
For the majority of children, part-time nursery education is very welcome on educational grounds. I do not believe that taking them away from their mothers for about three hours a day in term time deprives them.
Mrs. Renée Short
Last week I had the opportunity of visiting a college of education in London and meeting some of the heads of schools who would shortly be taking a nursery intake under the expansion programme. Is the right hon. Lady aware that I was told on that occasion of four-year-olds in classes not of 30, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) said, but of 40 children? This is not a pupil/teacher ratio that one would want to see in any sector of education and certainly not in a sector which purports to give nursery education. Ought not the right hon. Lady to investigate this matter?
[column 1224]Mrs. Thatcher
Local education authorities have a discretion whether to take in these children. I am surprised that there are local education authorities which are taking four-year-olds—whom they do not have to take in—into classes which appear to be over-sized.
Petroleum Engineering
9. Mr. Douglas
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement on discussions between her Department and the Institute of Petroleum with regard to the organisation of courses in petroleum engineering in the United Kingdom, in the light of the recommendations in the IMEG report.
Mrs. Thatcher
There have been no such discussions, but a group of officials from my own and other interested Departments, including the University Grants Committee, are urgently considering the education and training needs of the offshore industry, and will shortly be consulting bodies such as the Institute of Petroleum.
Mr. Douglas
Is the Secretary of State aware that the institute is in discussion with the Department of Trade and Industry on this particular topic? Will she use her good offices to look at the situation that is arising when a number of universities are embarking on such courses? Will she discuss with the University Grants Committee the formulation of a policy for a top-class research institution in offshore technology in the United Kingdom?
Mrs. Thatcher
As I have just informed the House, the University Grants Committee has an official on this group who will shortly be consulting the Institute of Petroleum. I hope that getting these two and other interested bodies together will produce the desired results.
Mr. Laurance Reed
Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have just come from the Department of Mechanical Engineering of University College, London, which is one of the few universities in this country which runs an M.Sc. course in ocean engineering? Did she know that there has been absolutely no contact between her Department and that department since the IMEG report and that it [column 1225]has had no conact with the Department of Trade and Industry either?
Mrs. Thatcher
I hope that that problem will be remedied now that the University Grants Committee has an official on the group who will carefully seek to identify the education and training needs of industry, to see whether they are already being fulfilled and, if not, to make arrangements to fulfil them.
Mr. Moyle
In view of what the right hon. Lady said earlier this afternoon, does not she agree that the last answer she gave on this matter on 10th April was very complacent? It is no use listing the appropriate departments of universities. Does not the right hon. Lady agree that no training in oil drilling engineering is taking place in this country at present and that we need these oil drilling engineers if the sub-contracting business in the North Sea is to go to British firms and not to American firms?
Mrs. Thatcher
Before coming to the House today, I carefully inquired as to whether we had had any complaints from industry about a lack of education or training facilities which created man-power problems. I was told that we had had none. I am given to understand that among the top skills in the offshore industry, including petroleum engineers, there is already a significant and growing element of United Kingdom personnel.
School Leavers (Preparation for Employment)
10. Mr. Duffy
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps she is taking to assist prospective school leavers to adjust themselves to future employment.
Mrs. Thatcher
I expect to receive shortly the results of a survey by Her Majesty's inspectors of careers education and guidance in secondary schools, on the basis of which I can consider what future help and advice may be needed. Also, when the Education (Work Experience) Bill has completed its remaining stages, I shall be offering advice to local education authorities about suitable arrangements.
Mr. Duffy
I am grateful to the Secretary of State. Does she agree that it is not merely information that school leavers require but conditioning for a totally alien [column 1226]world, not only of custom and practice, but also of freedom and responsibility? Will she invite local authorities to look at Sheffield's work experience unit, which enables school leavers to exchange three months of their final year at school for three months in a local factory?
Mrs. Thatcher
I doubt very much whether that would come within the terms of the Education (Work Experience) Bill. A straight exchange does not sound like the kind of thing which the Bill was designed to meet. Otherwise, I agree with a good deal of what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. Jeffrey Archer
Although the small Bill at present in Committee is very good for those who want work experience, is it not vital to let parents know exactly what is going on, because often in the past parents have not been well informed?
Mrs. Thatcher
I agree that that is an important factor, and that very careful arrangements must be made to implement the provisions of the Bill.
Mr. Spearing
Does the right hon. Lady agree that adjustment to employment demands certain standards of numeracy and literacy? Does she recall that when I asked her some time ago whether she would make a survey of the standards of numeracy and literacy of all school leavers, she did not think that she should do so? Will she reconsider this matter?
Mrs. Thatcher
In both of those spheres, what we have done is to see that we get better standardised tests of attainment, both in literacy, which is being dealt with by the Bullock Committee, and for numeracy. The standardised tests do not exist at present.
School Building Standards
11. Miss Fookes
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if, in the light of the increase in building costs, she is satisfied that standards of school building, particularly in relation to space and quality of materials, are being maintained.
Mrs. Thatcher
Cost limits for school, further education, college of education, polytechnic and university projects will be increased by 22 per cent. with effect from 1st April 1973. All school projects approved by my Department conform to [column 1227]the requirements of the Standards of School Premises Regulations 1972.
Miss Fookes
May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on two good announcements this afternoon?
Mrs. Thatcher
I am very grateful.
Mr. Hattersley
Will the right hon. Lady say how that figure was arrived at?
Mrs. Thatcher
By taking into account the increases in costs which have occurred since the last increase.
Mr. Molloy
Is the right hon. Lady aware that many local education authorities, such as the London borough of Ealing, for example, are endeavouring to struggle to make into reality a comprehensive system within their areas, and that these increases in costs are having very sad and deleterious effects? The figures that she has announced today will not be of very great help. Will she consider holding a conference of local authorities which find that building costs are inhibiting their efforts, in order to see what she can do to help them?
Mrs. Thatcher
The 22 per cent. increase in cost limits is the largest ever announced. A 22 per cent. increase in one year is a very considerable figure.
25. Mr. Spearing
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement concerning cost limits on new school buildings and the adequacy of the current school building regulations.
Mrs. Thatcher
I have just announced, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Merton and Morden (Miss Fookes), that cost limits will be increased by 22 per cent. with effect from 1st April 1973. The requirements set out in the Standards for School Premises Regulations 1972, which have been endorsed by successive Governments, are kept under review.
Mr. Spearing
Will the hon. Lady assure us that the standards that will now be possible as a result of the 22 per cent. increase will be equivalent in quality and size to the school buildings which have been erected in the past? Is she aware that her two Under-Secretaries have refused to provide any evidence which shows that the current school [column 1228]building regulations are based on any sound educational criteria and, moreover, have refused to discuss this with me on at least two occasions?
Mrs. Thatcher
The building regulations have been endorsed by successive Governments over many years. The standard of school buildings is well above the minima provided for.
Mr. Selwyn Gummer
Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to have a look at those standards as they apply to fire risk, because there is considerable worry in certain parts of the country that fire risk standards are not tight enough?
Mrs. Thatcher
We have already been doing that. I will send my hon. Friend a detailed bulletin about this.
Mr. Marks
What was the cause of the delay in the statement? It was six weeks later than last year.
Mrs. Thatcher
If the hon. Gentleman cares to look, he will find that the announcement in spring 1970 came in February, in 1971 it came in March, in 1972 it came in April and in 1973 it has come in May.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis
Has my right hon. Friend considered whether, in view of the shortage of building and construction workers, her Department is making the best use of factory-built units for school building?
Mrs. Thatcher
There are a number of factory-built schools being erected by local authority consortia. We leave the method of construction to the local education authorities, which is best in the circumstances.
Primary School Replacements
12. Mr. Madel
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she is satisfied with the current programme of primary school replacements; and if she will make a statement.
Mrs. Thatcher
Programmes for the four years 1972–76 include provision for the replacement or improvement of about 2,000 old primary schools at a cost of about £200 million at 1972 prices.
Mr. Madel
Will my right hon. Friend look at Bedfordshire's primary school replacement programme in detail, as the [column 1229]rise in the county's population is such that we are not keeping pace with primary school needs there? Will my right hon. Friend see whether she can get the county to accelerate its programme dramatically?
Mrs. Thatcher
I am always prepared to look at individual programmes. Regarding the replacement of primary school programmes, when the four programmes have been completed Bedfordshire will be over half way towards the replacement or improvement of its pre-1903 accommodation for primary pupils. That is well up to the national standard. But I shall have a further look at this matter today in view of my hon. Friend's representations.
Miss Lestor
The right hon. Lady was asked whether she was satisfied with the primary school replacement programme. Will she say, in view of what she has said about the programme, how long she considers that it will take to replace the 300 pre-1903 primary schools in use in the Inner London Education Authority areas?
Mrs. Thatcher
I cannot. When I first came to consider the programme I thought that the last Government had left me only 3,000 last-century primary schools. By the time the programme had really got under way we discovered that the problem was even larger than we thought. In fact, there were between 6,000 and 7,000 such schools. That only shows how right the Government were to concentrate on replacing old primary schools.
National Union of Teachers (President)
13. Mr. Thomas Cox
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will seek to arrange a meeting with the newly-elected President of the National Union of Teachers.
22. Mr. Stallard
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will have discussions with the newly-elected President of the National Union of Teachers.
Mrs. Thatcher
It is my usual practice to see the president at his request. I have no immediate plans to invite him to a meeting.
[column 1230]Mr. Cox
Is not the right hon. Lady fully aware of the detailed and general criticism which was made by the recently-elected president of her education policies and, in particular, of the callous indifference which she continues to show about the London teachers' allowance and London school buildings? Does she not think in view of the importance of these matters to people and to children, that she should have the courage to face a public debate so that the people of Great Britain can judge her policies as against the problems which the NUT is now experiencing?
Mrs. Thatcher
The President of the NUT made certain criticisms. Indeed, he received a very effective reply.
Mr. Stallard
Will the right hon. Lady try to discuss with the President of the NUT the terrible plight of young teachers who are trying to find living accommodation in London? Is she aware that the teachers have put forward constructive proposals for the solution of some of these problems in Inner London? Further, is she aware that the price of property in London is far beyond the reach of teachers even in posts of responsibility earning £3,000 per annum or thereabouts? Does she realise that it is impossible for young teachers, even taking joint incomes into account, to get mortgages to buy living accommodation in London? Will she seek an urgent meeting with the President of the NUT to discuss his constructive proposals for a solution?
Mrs. Thatcher
I understand from the latest Burnham settlement that at the request of teachers no increase was made in the London allowance. It is customary after the conference of the National Union of Teachers for the executive to see me and to discuss the resolutions.
Primary Schools (Class Size)
14. Mr. Stonehouse
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the average size of classes in primary schools in England and Wales and in Walsall, respectively; and what is the programme for providing more modern primary school places in Walsall.
Mr. St. John-Stevas
In January 1972, the latest date for which figures are available, the average size of primary classes was 31.3 in England and Wales and 33.5 [column 1231]in Walsall. Ten major primary school projects providing 2,400 places at a cost of nearly £1 million have been included in Walsall's building programmes for the next three years.
Mr. Stonehouse
I accept that some progress has been made. Does not the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that in the older industrial areas, such as Walsall, there is a very serious problem of out-of-date school conditions and over-size classes? Will he ask his right hon. Friend to give every encouragement to the school building programme in such localities?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
We are already doing that. The Walsall authority, in addition to the places which I have mentioned, has been allocated £115,000 and £90,000 to spend on minor works during 1973–74 and 1974–75 respectively. A start will be made in 1973–74 on new buildings for the St. Thomas of Canterbury Roman Catholic School.
Somerset House (Theatre Museum)
17. Mr. Strauss
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress she has made in arranging the establishment of a theatre museum in Somerset House; and if she will make a statement.
Mr. St. John-Stevas
My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction hopes to make an announcement about the use of Somerset House for this purpose before the recess.
Mr. Strauss
I am very pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman's answer. In view of the large number of interests involved and the consequential danger of delay in bringing this admirable venture to fruition, will the hon. Gentleman take some responsibility himself in ensuring that his Department carries out the necessary negotiations with vigour and speed?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
I should like to be more forthcoming to the right hon. Gentleman but unfortunately the responsibility for this building does not fall within the responsibility of my noble Friend or myself. I am most sympathetic to the project which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned. If he will be patient, I feel that his dreams may be fulfilled.
[column 1232]Sir Harmar Nicholls
Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that it is recognised that there are what are known as inter-departmental influences which can be brought to bear? As far as they exist in his Department, will he make certain to use them? Is he aware that we are the centre of theatre-land in the world and that its economic advantages go far beyond the cultural influences? Does my hon. Friend agree that this is a matter to which full attention should be given because of its great potential?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
I have never thought of myself as an inter-departmental influence. I shall do my best to see that the project is brought to a conclusion satisfactory to all parties.
Boarding School Fees (Dorset)
18. Mr. Evelyn King
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consents have been given for increases in boarding school fees charged by public authorities in Dorset; what percentage increases they represented; and if she will make a statement.
Mr. St. John-Stevas
None. Consent was not required for increases before the commencement of the counter-inflation programme. No increases occurred during stage 1; those proposed to take effect during stage 2 must be consistent with the Price and Pay Code.
Mr. King
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not in the educational interests of any child that on financial grounds he should be removed from a school in the course of his school career? Is he aware that since 1969 the local authority-controlled school in question has increased fees by no less than 99 per cent. during the school lifetime of a child and is now proposing an increase of 20 per cent.? Will he use his influence to ensure that that does not happen?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
I certainly regret the interruption of any child's education. Of course, local education authorities determine their own fees for boarding schools which they maintain. The Department's consent is not required and the Department has no power to intervene. I am sure that my hon. Friend will use his influence in this matter.
[column 1233]Mr. Marks
What does the Price and Pay Code say about school fees? Does it affect private school fees? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are reports of fees being doubled since the freeze?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
Responsibility for the Price and Pay Code does not fall within the sphere of my Department.
Pre-School Education (Birmingham)
19. Mr. Sidney Chapman
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what are the numbers of children in the City of Birmingham receiving nursery education and in other pre-school groups; how this figure compares with a year before; and what is her estimate of the figures a year hence.
Mr. St. John-Stevas
In January 1973 there were about 9,000 pupils under five in maintained primary and nursery schools, 1,000 more than a year earlier. The local education authority expects a further increase of about 1,000 pupils by January 1974.
Mr. Chapman
While I welcome that trend and know that my hon. Friend understands the desperate need for educational and child-minding facilities for the under-fives, at least in parts of that city, may I ask him to arrange for the closest co-ordination between other Government Departments and the local authority to see that as many of these places as possible go to the parts of the city where there is most need, particularly those parts which have social problems?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
I am aware of the social problems in parts of Birmingham. Of the under-fives in school in January this year, nearly half were in nursery schools or classes and the rest were in other classes in primary schools.
Deprived Areas
21. Mr. Deakins
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps she is taking to ensure that the criteria for identifying areas of educational deprivation are uniformly applied.
Mrs. Thatcher
In allocating capital resources to local education authorities for the expansion of nursery education I [column 1234]shall take account of data from the census and elsewhere on housing, income and occupation. It is for authorities themselves to decide how to use these and other resources within their own areas.
Mr. Deakins
Would it not be advisable for the right hon. Lady to issue some guidelines to local education authorities about this matter so that we do not find ourselves in the absurd situation that educationally deprived children in some areas receive special help under the urban programme while similar children elsewhere are denied that help?
Mrs. Thatcher
We give general guidance to local education authorities. We rely upon them to know where the most difficult areas are within their boundaries. We do the general allocation for nursery provision and within that allocation rely on local knowledge.
School Building Programme (West Riding)
23. Mr. Edwin Wainwright
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will give the total amounts of money allocated for secondary and primary school building, respectively, in the West Riding of Yorkshire for each of the past four years.
Mr. St. John-Stevas
As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report.
Mr. Wainwright
Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is quite deplorable that children should have to go outside the school and across a yard to the toilets? When will his Department do something for the Jump Primary School in Wombwell, and for the Swinton Fitzwilliam School, replacement for which has been promised for a long time? Can he also do something for the Wombwell Catholic School, which urgently requires extra classrooms, despite what the right hon. Lady said the other week?
Mr. St. John-Stevas
Allocations for the replacement or improvement of nineteenth century primary schools in the first year for which my right hon. Friend was responsible have considerably exceeded the total in the previous three years. I am certainly willing to look at the position of the schools the hon. Member [column 1235]has mentioned. I can tell him that the new preliminary list of school building projects expected to start in or after [column 1236]1975–76 includes replacement of the Swinton Fitzwilliam junior school.
Following are the figures:
